And thank Kate for explaining a healthy way to deprogram oneself from religious mind control,, which for many goes unnoticed,, and for many like Pat blind unquestioning followers, doing NOM's work,,,

It's up to each individual confronted by this challenge,,(and I note many are not and have never had their spirits destroyed by religion) I consider those people inspired and free,,, for the rest of us,,, question your religion,, your churches, and don't stop,,, till you arrive at the place Kate explains,,,

I wouldn't agree that the Catholic church "teaches" supremacy of personal conscience,, but it is hidden their to be discovered , uncovered, and claimed,,, that is the key, which opens and frees us from blind following,,,, no church can deny this SUPREMACY OF PERSONAL CONSCIENCE,,,

that would be the end of NOM

I'll tell you one thing right now – if you do your own research and look into reputable scientists and publications, you won't find the facts you are looking for. You'll find the ones we have been talking about for some time now. A good place to start would be the transcripts of the P8 trial. Google the names of the "scientists" listed on the anti SSM sites, but if you read about them on those same sites, you'll only be part of the choir. Step outside the church or religion – step out of those sites to find what others say about them, because if you only listen to the pastor/father, you'll never learn any other way. Why don't you try it – find out what others outside the choir think of these people and their discredited and debunked research? I guess I’m asking you to not only research outside of your comfort zone, but I’m also asking you to do reputation checks within your comfort zone. Will you take my challenge?

We tend not to listen to each other because we view others in our own image. Those who can change (essentially) tell others they must be delusional, or vice versa. Well, most of us have tried it, over and over and over and over and over. Some of us have prayed mightily for it, over and over and over and over. And for those people who cannot change, guess what? The change never comes, and it never will.

I accept the fact that you were able to change, and I think it's fine and dandy that you were able to do so. But your ability to change does not mean that the rest of us have that ability. I did not, and I never will have it. Rather than conflate your experiences with ours since you can see from your viewpoint only as most humans do, maybe listening to ours will help for once.

I'll speak of an experience I had. A former church friend of mine who I had not seen in some time since I came out decided that he wanted to "get to know who I am" better. He came over to meet me and started peppering me with questions. I gave him honest and sincere answers and told him of my experiences. But he kept telling me that my experiences weren't right (my word) and kept rephrasing his questions trying to evince some particular answer. I couldn't answer his questions – at least not the way he wanted me to – because my experiences didn't reflect what he was looking for. I told him that I thought he was looking for something, but he denied this. His questions told a different story, and I believe that he was looking for something in particular, but he was not aware of this fact. We concluded and I sent home my personal copy of a book and asked him to read it to see if it would help him form a basis for his further questions. He returned it to me perhaps a month or so later, told me he'd skimmed most of it and read only small parts here and there. Then I could only smile and say nothing when he handed the book back to me and told me that he "did not find what [he] was looking for." It was a telling answer, and he did not request to meet again, nor did he even want to ask more questions that day. I guess he had really come over to see if he could convince me that my biology was wrong.

My point is that he may have been asking questions based on his own experiences, but saw a mismatch between my answers and his experiences. He had no frame of reference for what I was telling him, so he likely did not understand what I was telling him. Every time he told me that my answer wasn't right, he basically told me that I had not experienced what I had experienced, but I don't think he realized that. He kept telling me that what had happened to me must somehow be wrong, but he did not realize that his experiences and personal history did not invalidate my history and experiences. He seemed to think that there was only one way to experience things, and that they must all follow his frame of reference. He was wrong. But my experiences don't invalidate his experiences; funny, the other way round was not the same because his did invalidate mine, but only in his eyes and not in reality.

You are a perfect example of why homophobia is the real problem, not that LGBTs are a minority part of the population. So are left-handed people (who used to be considered evil, or at best, not normal). So are certain ethnicities. So are exceptionally smart people. I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. The psychological damage of trying to be something you are not is worse than the damage of just being in the minority. And in the opinion of many LGBTs, even the very real possibility of injury &/or death is not as bad as living a lie.

And as Ronnie & others have pointed out, you don't need to have heterosexual sex to become a parent.

For someone who claims to have "overcome" your attraction to others of the same sex, you are spending an amazing amount of time trying to prove it to a group of people you don't even know, and who will never believe you. Methinks the lady or the gentleman protests too much.

It's late & I'm tired, so I don't know if what I just wrote expresses what I am trying to say.