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NOM blocks NOMTourTracker.com from St. Louis event (but not FOX News)

NOM Tour Tracker Right-wing

By Arisha Michelle Hatch

We’re in the St. Louis area today, the “Gateway to the West” (specifically, the event is in Clayton). It’s an evening NOM event, and we came expecting a doozy given yesterday’s news.

So far, 118 equality activists are lining the streets in front of the county courthouse and cheering at each honking car that passes.

Showmenohate, a local grassroots organization that formed two years ago in response to the passage of Prop 8 led the mobilization effort in partnership with PROMO, a statewide LGBT equality organization in Missouri, is here.

Five police officers stand between the long line of equality activists and the courtyard where NOM is set to host its rally. We’re told by sources on the ground that Clayton police officers have been friendly and cooperative; nevertheless, Anthony, Phyllis and I have each been approached twice by one particular female officer with different stories. Anthony and Phyllis were both told separately that we were not allowed into the courtyard – that it wasn’t clear if NOM will be doing interviews today. The second time I was approached, she told me to stay in this section, when I pushed back and asked whether we’d be allowed to film once the rally started she said “for now you must stand in this area.”

We’ll take that as a yes for now.

FOX News is here interviewing equality supporters; first a transgender woman, then a Reverend from Faith Aloud.

We’re also told by sources that NOM had quite some trouble securing a permit here; apparently no one wants them in their town.

UPDATE BY ARISHA (4:30 PST): NOM has chosen to block NOMTourTracker.com from its event. So far, FOX News is being allowed in, while NOMTourTracker.com and one other gay lifestyle magazine are being kept out. The magazine was asked to submit its questions to NOM before being denied entry. NOM is apparently renting the space and the female police officer (pictured below) keeps telling us it’s a “private party” (remember those permitting issues that I mentioned?).

Police block NOMTourTracker.com from NOM event

We count 35 NOM rally attendees from afar, and we’re now up to 214 equality supporters.

UPDATE BY ADAM (4:38 PST): Some photos are rolling in from Phyllis. Here’s the spot from where our Tracker team is being permitted to observe:

Where NOM is permitting NOMTourTracker.com to film in Clayton, MO

Wow. They are really losing it. What are they afraid of?

Photos of equality supporters at or near the event:

Rev. Kimberly Banks Brown and Andrew in Clayon, MO

Equality supporter in Clayton, MO

UPDATE BY ADAM (4:44 PST): OK, now this is really becoming outrageous.

Below are Steve Houldworth and Graham Matthews.

Steve Houldworth and Graham Matthews, denied entry to NOM rally because they held hands

They RSVPed to the NOM rally via Facebook.

When they showed up, they were not allowed in. When they asked why, they were told it’s because they are holding hands.

Speechless.

UPDATE BY ARISHA (4:49 PST): As my grandmother used to say, “it ain’t gonna happen, kids.”

NOM will not let us in to their private party today (or, apparently, gay couples). We’ve tried every angle. Brian Brown could be saying something profound and tolerant right at this very moment, and we won’t get to hear it.

Each of us has separately asked almost every officer in sight (looking for security cracks). I personally offered to surrender all recording devices, take off my press pass and attend as a private citizen. I pulled the “I-am-not-a-lesbian” card. Denied. I’m not a part of their group, the officer told me.

“How are you identifying who is a part of their group?” I asked.

The officer looked at me, said nothing.

“Is there a list? A paper invitation? A secret password?”

“Do you know the password,” the officer quipped. “You’re not in their group.”

“I’m a member of their Facebook group, does that count?”

Today, we found at something we already knew – NOM’s definitely got discriminating taste.

No worries. Brian’s got to come out to the bus (parked on a public sidewalk) sometime. He can’t hide out at this exclusive event forever.

We’ll be waiting (patiently) because based on NOM’s response to the Prop 8 verdict, they’ve definitely got lots to say.

UPDATE BY ARISHA (5:20 PST): I wish that I were quick-witted enough to come up with an acronym describing how difficult it is for a gay person to enter a NOM rally (I’m sure our Tracker commenters will be better at that anyway), because there is some serious gay-profiling going on.

Two men holding hands (presumably gay) attempted to cross the blockade with their iPhone Facebook invite in hand, but were told they weren’t on “the list”.

The two men approached the ACLU observer and asked why they couldn’t go in despite their RSVP.

“It looks like you’ve been disinvited.”

The officers have been told to ask people questions to feel out if they’re a part of “the group.”

As NOM supporters leave we’re asking what the secret password is.

One NOM supporter -offended that we were denied access- approached the officer on our behalf.

“I was sitting here with my son and we just walked right in,” she said.

UPDATE BY ADAM (5:28 PST): In the comments, the question was put forth on whether this was a private or public space. The Tracking team is telling me it is on a grassy area between the St. Louis County Courthouse and one of the revenue buildings- e.g., a public space- near the intersection of South Central Avenue and Carondelet Avenue (approximate location here). But the area is surrounding with police blocking entrance.

UPDATE BY ADAM (7:44 PST): Arisha and the team talked to Brian after the rally, but video won’t be available until tomorrow. Be sure to check back in for what he said after tonight’s goings-on.

One last thing I wanted to note for the night, though. Guess where the NOM folks ended up going after the rally:

NOM at Best Buy

I bet they couldn’t help themselves, given the Target/Best Buy nationwide call to boycott from many parts of the LGBT and allied community following the donation of $150,000 to MN Forward, which is supporting Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer, who is anti-marriage equality. Classy.

This will be the last update for the evening. Be sure to check for video of Brian tomorrow.

296 Comments Leave a Comment

  • 1. Ķĭŗîļĺę&  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:32 am

    They are getting mad, crazy and pissed off!
    That's good!

  • 2. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:34 am

    You should see their Facebook pages they are going apeshite….<3…Ronnie

  • 3. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:37 am

    Mat 10:26-27 (NIV) "There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops."

    Mark 4:22 (Jer) "For there is nothing hidden but it must be disclosed, nothing kept secret except to be brought to light."

  • 4. Owen  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Mostly good, but I'm concerned about violence.

    Not right now, but imagine what these people could do if SCOTUS gives us a favorable ruling?

    The bigoted savages need an outlet for their anger… =

    Oh, and nice quick follow-up, lol. Thanks Arisha!

  • 5. Phia Westfall  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:40 am

    "Only the refusal to listen guarantees one against being ensnared by the truth." — Robert Nozick

    But it doesn't hurt to keep those speaking the truth as far away as possible so there's less chance of accidentally hearing it anyway…

    Sub, circum, trans, and all the other -scribing I might consider…

  • 6. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:45 am

    I should probably not revel in the enemy's defeat, but it makes my heart sing to see so few of them hiding away, knowing what they do is shameful. If they had any belief that they were actually on the side of RIGHT in this fight, they would be out in front, proclaiming it loudly.

    But they hide, they whisper their ugly lies to each other in the dark. And we stand, in greater numbers every day, with candles, cameras and the truth.

  • 7. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Meet me in St. Louey, Louey, meet me at the fair . . .

  • 8. Alan E.  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:46 am

    aww a little sore eh?

  • 9. adambink  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Multiple updates posted above, everyone.

  • 10. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:46 am

    I'm feeling too much love right now — for Walker, for all the people at P8TT, for all the fair-minded people in the world who stand proud for equality and justice — to even care what NOM is doing.

    But I'm subscribing. :)

  • 11. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:48 am

    It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the Truth and expose lies.
    ~ Noam Chomsky

  • 12. Mackenzie  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:48 am

    I was sad I couldn't show up with my people of Missouri today, but I am glad they had a decent turnout!

  • 13. William Davis  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:49 am

    I recommend video games for their anger. =D

  • 14. Richard W. Fitch  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:50 am

    okay — this is one I must follow. anyone near a Yahoo mail server, please stand back.

  • 15. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Truth, like milk, arrives in the dark
    But even so, wise dogs don't bark.
    Only mongrels make it hard
    For the milkman to come up the yard.
    ~Christopher Morley, Dogs Don't Bark at the Milkman

  • 16. Steven  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:57 am

    It appears they are getting VERY desperate and scared, I was having some very civil (and surprisingly intelligent at times) debates on the NOM blog comments and have gone back on today to see that not only were my comments from last night not posted (as they were awaiting moderation before they would be posted) but also some of my comments (which were in no way offensive but rather just informative and one just a direct posting from a wikipedia page) had been REMOVED!
    If you truely believed that you were on the right side why would you silence the other and not just let the truth speak for itself? Its because they know!
    Ugh… Im so frustrated by NOM…

  • 17. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Is this rally being held on private property, or is it a public space? If it's a public space, do they have a right to restrict attendance like this?

  • 18. Hurray for decent va  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:01 am

    Oh, it's a "private event." I thought NOM was about "the American people"?

    It's extra, extra ironic that today, August 5, 2010, due to the events of yesterday, is "More American Day"*. (Actually, every day is More American Day from this point forward, basically.)

    This whole NOM tour has never been more delicious. I'm glad they have a few more cities yet.

    *If you don't get the allusion, it's a reference to David Blankenhorn's scrupulously honest testimony at the Prop 8 trial.

  • 19. Sagesse  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:01 am

    Prop 8 is overturned yesterday, and they get 35 supporters. The real world just collided with the Summer for Marriage Tour. Subscribing.

  • 20. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:03 am

    For your comedic enjoyment, someone on another forum I'm on posted this, to "prove" that marriage equality would harm society:
    http://www.letusreason.org/current8.htm

    Please, hold your laughter down, your neighbors will think you're up to something.

  • 21. Jeff  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:05 am

    Maybe it is time to have some undercover attendees in the future…

  • 22. Bolt  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:05 am

    LOL! The NOM is a miserable failure. May the careers of Brian Brown, and Maggie Gallagher spin into a devastating, downward negative swirl.

  • 23. adambink  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:06 am

    Some more updates posted by Arisha, folks.

  • 24. Anna Bryan  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:12 am

    I am very disappointed that Tour Tracker is being blocked. I've noticed that @NOMtweets and @oneman_onewoman also aren't live tweeting from the event. Maybe there is some NOMsecret that is being shared at this rally.

    Obviously, I am very disappointed that the world will not get to hear what NOM's speakers are saying. It is, after all, my goal to get their message out to the world.

  • 25. Rich  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:13 am

    I was allowed in to the event (although the police did ask what group I was with) – I was going to listen quietly off to the side. I made it about 3 minutes in to the first speaker after Brian and was disgusted when he equated us to thieves and rapists. I was in the courtyard but not a NOM supporter – please remove me from your headcount.

  • 26. Bright future  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Their turning away the two men holding hands speaks volumes.

    They are not about discrimination? Bullshit.

    They are not about exclusion? Bullshit.

    Their "no gay people" rally admission policy is not very American, either.

    Man.

  • 27. Anna Bryan  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Rich, you should have recorded the speeches so that we could share them with the world! I'm very interested in what they may have to say!

  • 28. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Legally, the answer is "it depends."

    There's lots of information on both sides. But typically, there are serious issues with keeping the press out of an event. The exception would be if the City is acting as a vendor, leasing out the property for the exclusive use of NOM.

  • 29. Sarah  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:20 am

    subscribing

  • 30. Rich  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Brian whined about the "activist" (Republican appointed) judge trampling on the will of the voters..pretty much the same thing he said on the NOM blog. I started to record but my phone died.

  • 31. James Tuttle  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:23 am

    That is a fabulous idea.

  • 32. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:23 am

    And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a gay man to enter into the kingdom of NOM.

  • 33. Rich  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:24 am

    I guess I passed the gay profile test

  • 34. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:27 am

    Thanks, l8r. I guess that part of the issue would be the definition of "press" in this post-print era. It would be interesting to see if they'd refuse entry to an MSNBC reporter, or someone from, say, Rolling Stone.

  • 35. Dave in CA  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:28 am

    They know now that anything they say ("thieves" "rapists" "activist judges" and so on) will prove that Judge Walker was correct in his analysis and ruling. Animus and moral disapproval and all those findings of fact, and anything that comes out of their mouths from this day forward is just more evidence of it.

    That's why they can't let their message be heard by the press or the public at large. They are going to prove Walker was right.

    The last act of desperation.

  • 36. eDee  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:29 am

    "“Is there a list? A paper invitation? A secret password?”"
    You guys have balls! I love it!!!

    The part that kills me is that Christ tells us to Light Our World!
    If they think LGBT are all deviants than they should be welcoming you with open arms. The entire POINT of Christianity is to SAVE the world, not make enemies. As those spreading the Word of God (at least as they see it) their mission should be to go out and find LGBT’s and preach the NOM version of the Good Word!

    NOM should be trying to Save the Souls of LGBT’s, not segregating them.

  • 37. Greg in OZ  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:32 am

    subbing

  • 38. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Oh, I see that Adam's answered above. So, public space. I wonder if the St. Louis Police Department will be sending a nice letter of apology the way the Annapolis Police Department did?

  • 39. Rich  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:37 am

    The speaker was Dr. Splinter from some "Protect Our Children Coalition" – he was comparing moral compasses and asking if people would leave children with people whose moral compass said that breaking into houses and stealing or raping was acceptable. Not a quote just what I took from him – I walked away at that point because I couldn't stand it anymore.

  • 40. Phil L  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:39 am

    This message may appear to be "all over the place" in structure, but I've got a lot of random things to toss out there at the moment.

    I can't wait for these NOMbskulls to lose this battle for good and finally fall into obscurity where they (along with other right wing fringe nutjob groups like Westboro Baptist Church) belong. As far as I see it NOM is pretty much like a panhandling Westboro that garners less publicity.

    In one of her speeches/blogs/whatevers that Maggie Gallagher gave/wrote/howevered she called herself a "plump" American woman. She's claiming that we're trying to redefine "marriage" and yet she goes around redefining "plump". If she's "plump" then to rate someone as "obese" must require them to be at least 700 lbs. How's that for inflation?

    Judge Walker was right on pretty much all accounts here. I think his ruling was near air-tight.

    And as a final goofy note, I loved the episode of Futurama about "Proposition Infinity" (a sideways 8 of course). When they parodied the Gathering Storm commerical it was, of course, silly, but the only response it got in the show was the character of Amy saying, "We can't compete against that much stock footage of clouds!"

  • 41. Bob  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:49 am

    how appropriate, Dr. Splinter from "protect Our Children Coalitiona" wonder if he'll mention little Roy, who was left with a man whose moral compass was waaaaayyyy of, beating the child to death because he feared his sympotms of feminiity, it is good that they are a least talking about the Children today.

  • 42. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Good quotes… For the next NOM #FAIL rally, I would recommend handing these quotes out on a pamphlet reading "if NOM insists it must have their meetings in secret, what must they be hiding?"

    Maybe someone who thought NOM was actually a 'good' group may start to question.

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 43. Timothy Kincaid  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:54 am

    Rich,

    Is the count of about 35 accurate?

  • 44. Gew  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Cowards. If Right, Truth and Justice are solidly on their side and MILLIONS of Americans agree with them why the isolation? Why the fear? Why the need for such tight control?

    They lie, they know they lie. They KNOW what passes their lips as so-called truth is in fact, far FAR from that.

    And so, they hide and cower behind barricades and police lines in fear and trembling, playing at martry and vicim.

    Cowards.

  • 45. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Heee hee…

    Is Louis there?

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 46. Dave in ME  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Late again..sign me up!

    Dave

  • 47. Rich  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Pretty accurate – but if you take away the local people that were organizers/sponsors of this event (in a past life I was active in the Evangelical community) as well as the NOM staffers I recognize from past event pictures, there were more like 15

  • 48. jc  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:02 am

    AFA Calls for Judge Walker’s Impeachment
    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/05/25107

    man the crazies are out in force! :)

  • 49. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:03 am

    I'm probably dating myself.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JARDvdrAxk

    I sent to college and got married not too far from where they are holding their little private hate party.

    Grrrrr.

  • 50. Phil L  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Yeah, I saw that too.

    We know that it will go nowhere at all (especially when the 9th upholds Walker's decision) but it was funny to read anyway.

  • 51. Chris B  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:06 am

    If they have the truth, they should have nothing to hide. But of course, they have NOTHING except the same old clichés and misinformation and stereotypes and "what about the kids" arguments. We know how all that turned out in the Prop8 trial.

    At the trial, pro-marriage people had what, 15 witnesses/expert testimony. The anti-marriage side had 3 (Blankenhorn: "we would be more, emphasize more, American on the day we permitted same-sex marriage than we were on the day before."; Tam: "I did my research on the internet"; and another guy). I mean, if there were any time to get your best and brightest and most compelling experts, this was it. Yet they were unable to get anyone substantial.

    So, of course, NOM has to hide away, so people don't see the misinformation they are passing along to the already-converted.

  • 52. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:08 am

    No, I got the reference… Was gonna even mention Judy Garland as a nice rainbow reference

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 53. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:10 am

    Does that make his coalition a "Splinter" group? :D

    Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 54. Owen  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:12 am

    As we know, the fundies are against violent video games.

    They'd rather go beat up a gay person IRL. :c

  • 55. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:15 am

    So… NOM got scared and went into hiding… Just like a bunch of cockroaches… Showing their true nature, it seems.

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 56. Gregory in SLC  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:15 am

    turned away for holding hands? double speechless!

  • 57. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:15 am

    Ah, St. Louis — I'm still rather fond of the place, although I'd prefer not to live there again. Clayton was within walking distance of my college.

    Stay away, Louis!! You, too, Brian and Maggie!!!

    ::shakes fist in air::

  • 58. Omini  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Nice one.

  • 59. Anna Bryan  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:16 am

    I really think that Tour Tracker should have lawyers on site for the remaining tour dates so that they can respond immediately to these situations.

    It's good that it sounds like the ACLU is there at least.

  • 60. Alan E.  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:17 am

    I'm at the talk with David Boies and just happened to get a seat right beside Dpeck!

  • 61. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Here's another Meet Me in St. Louis song…"Clang ,clang, clang went the trolley. Ding, ding, ding went the bell..Zing, zing, zing went my heartstrings as we started for Huntington Dell."

    It was the same night of Judy's Funeral (RIP) that sparked the LGBT Liberation @Stonewall June 27th, 1969.

    You know I think it's fate that I was born on June 27th… ; )

    Hi Louis!!!!…..<3…Ronnie:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odXnKhKBxQ

  • 62. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Oh, do tell us more later!!

  • 63. Mike  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I guess they weren't two of the, as of yet undisclosed, gay people that work for NOM that Maggie likes to talk about.

  • 64. Stormy  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:24 am

    now I really wish I had been able to attend. I wonder if I would have been allowed in with my young son in tow? Probably not with my giant rainbow umbrella….

    I'm glad to hear so many showed up in support of equality.

  • 65. Jim  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Can you please post the link to the other forum? I'd love to see how this interesting "reason"ing was received.

  • 66. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Say… Someone (can't remember who) was keeping track of all the excuses that NOM gave for their low lurnout numbers… I guess they'll add to the list with "teh gayz stole our decoder rings!"

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 67. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Well, it was roundly picked apart and laughed at, I'll tell you that. Unfortunately, the forum is members only, and it's part of a — wait for it — knitting website. You can apply if you want — Ravelry.com.

  • 68. A5000  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:51 am

    So the "tour" has basically just turned into private hate meetings in different cities that you have to RSVP to NOM with your bigoted credentials to get into. They are the biggest piles of horse $^@# ever. Complete and utter failure!

  • 69. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Talk about getting desparate! If they were so sure that they had a valid case, they would have no trouble allowing NOM TourTracker to be there and ask questions. Guess the questions are hitting a little too close to home and the tempers are getting short in NOMbieland.
    BTW, anonygrl, you working on the script for tonight's bus session?

  • 70. Breaking the Silence  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:56 am

    Exactly! What a death-spiral. The vitriol that undoes their standing is the lifeblood of keeping their base activated.

  • 71. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:57 am

    I'll get right on that, Richard! :)

  • 72. Bolt  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Did anyone see lesbians love boies on CNN? Small world!

  • 73. Bob  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    yup probably does, but if their on about the children, the coalition had something to do with banning books in libraries.

    Also of interest, "Convention on Rights of the Child"

    as of 2009 it has been ratified by every member of the United Nations except Somali, and the U.S.

    non ratification of the teaty is in part due to patential conflicts with the U.S. constitution, and opposition by some political and religious conservatives.

    Surprizingly Obama has described failure to ratify as embarrassing and promisied a review.

    there is resistance to the notion of children's rights, because it may interfere with a parents rights to endoctrinate,

    This stuff about the children goes back to the early days of the gay rights movement, Anita Bryant, Stonewall,

    we could do some digging into these issues, especially if Splinter was talking today.

  • 74. Victoria  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    It's hard to look too good for the press when all you do at your "rallies" is ask for money to support a position that was just declared a massive FAIL. Starts to draw a lot of attention to salaries and purpose and mission and whatnot. ;)

  • 75. Sagesse  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    An interview with Maggie, from Jul 23. Some tidbits I haven't seen before.
    http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/07/friday-five-ma

  • 76. elliott  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Don't get me wrong: yesterday's announcement regarding the Prop. 8 ruling was incredible, but I, for one, love, love, LOVE the crazies who turn out to these "events" and I love even more the people at the prop8trialtracker who pursue them. This seems like a game between Kasparov v. Big Blue except their Big Blue is a big ol' pot of Big Dumb… (yes, I know, Big Blue recently won, but still, WTF?)

    I want on the guest list but I have a feeling my visible piercing(s) will get me ix-nayed from the well-reviewed guest list. Still, kudos to those who are trying.

    P.S. Maggs looked so haggard (is Maggard a word yet?) on AC360 last night. My husband and I never looked so beautiful in the mirror. Tee hee.

  • 77. Breaking the Silence  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Indeed, would it have been surprising at all to see Westboro Baptist out in support of NOM today? They were recently in St. Louis "saving" Lady Gaga fans after all… And of course FauX News was allowed in, they clearly are "part of the group." ;-)

  • 78. Alan E.  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Ok to make you even more jealous, I got David Boies to sign my copy of the decision AND got a hug from him. I stayed around after everyone left to see his press conference and caught him at the end before he left.

  • 79. Breaking the Silence  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    Sweet! And that may be worth a lot of money in the more-enlightened future! :)

  • 80. RD  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    True – NOM totally controls the content of comments submitted on their Blog. It's Radical RW Slant. NOM has followed protocal since Blogs inception. ala NOM Deception.

  • 81. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    As requested, here is tonights installment:

    "The Night After We Became More American" on the NOM bus – part whatever number I am up to

    Six old people, very old, with canes, walkers, ear trumpets and so on, are perched inside the bus. Brian stands behind the podium which is set up at one end. Louis stands by the door, a tazer gun in one hand, occasionally making fast draw moves and posing like he is one of Charlie's Angels. Brian is concluding his remarks.

    Brian: So I am sorry we had to drag you out here into the woods 45 miles away from our announced rally location, and I hope you will all be able to make your way back to your cars, where ever it was we left them, but you have to understand how important this is! If we don't fight back now, those thieves, those evil usurpers of all that is good and right, will find out what we are saying, and turn it against us. Right now they are plotting to find us, and use their evil gay ways to brainwash us into selling our children into communist slavery! Then they will rape our goldfish, steal our best china, ransack our petunia gardens and turn America against us! Now, please take out your wallets and empty them into the bowl by the door on your way out. Without all your money, we will not be able to….

    There is a disturbance at the door of the bus. Louis rips the door open, shoves the tazer out into the darkness and we hear a loud ZAP and a rather high pitched shriek, then someone staggers off and we hear a distant thump as they collapse somewhere out in the heavily forested night.

    Louis: (excited) Got 'em! Woo hoo! Evil stinking gays! Show them!!

    Brian (glaring at Louis, he continues like the used car salesman he is) AS I was saying… without all your money, we will not be able to continue this fight. Thank you for coming, and be sure to tell your friends not to show up at our next rally, but to be sure to donate.

    Brian and Louis help the oldsters pour their coin purses into the bowl, and escort them off the bus. They watch as their supporters stagger off into the black night, then stare out the door for another minute. In the distance, we hear a wolf howl once, then crickets. They close the door, but just before it closes, a foot inserts itself. Louis tries to force the door closed, but the person on the outside forces her way in. It is Maggie. She is carrying a thick piece of tree branch in one hand, and holding up the wires from where Louis just tazed her in the other. She has only one shoe on, her hair is mussed and full of leaves, her shirt is torn, she is spattered with mud.

    Brian: What happened to YOU?

    Maggie: (incredulously) Louis TAZED me!

    Louis: (pointing at Brian, unfortunately with the hand holding the tazer) HE told me to!

    Brian Don't point that thing at ME Louis!

    Louis: But you told me, they can't come in! They can't know what we are planning!

    Maggie: (whirling on Louis, shouting) You TAZED ME!

    Brian: Where is your shoe?

    Maggie: Out there in the fucking WOODS somewhere! It took me two hours of hiking around to FIND you! What the hell are you doing out here?

    Brian: Well, we couldn't keep the tour trackers out… YOU said we had to! They kept explaining to the police that they had some sort of RIGHT to be in a public space. And when we said NO, that ACTIVIST in the city department of parks took our PERMIT AWAY….

    Maggie: Have you completely LOST YOUR MIND?

    Brian: No. Have you? What is this business about socialists paying to teach our children to be gay? I mean, I RAN with it, of course, but huh???

    Louis is, meanwhile looking at the business end of the tazer, trying like mad to pretend he is not even there.

    Maggie: (picking up the bowl of coins) And what is this?

    Brian: (somewhat embarrassed) The take for the night.

    Maggie counts it quickly.

    Maggie: Four dollars and twenty three cents… and a half eaten peppermint candy?

    Louis: (perking up a little) Can I have the candy? I haven't had dinner.

    Maggie: (whirls around and smacks Louis with the tree branch) YOU… TAZED… ME!!!

    Startled, Louis fires accidentally, tazing her a second time.

    Maggie: (as she falls, twitching) Damn it Louis! (and she lapses into unconsciousness)

    Brian: Ummm….

    He stands there looking at her lying in a heap, drool coming out of her mouth.

    Louis: (very quietly) I didn't mean to…

    The two of them stand on either side of her and watch as she regains consciousness, slowly.

    Maggie (blurred) Damn… it… you two… fuck… I am going… to KILL the BOTH OF YOU!

    She scrabbles around to find her tree branch and starts to climb to her feet, determinedly. Brian looks at Louis, deadpan, over Maggie. Louis returns the look.

    Maggie: (getting closer to being upright) I am going… to BEAT YOU… to DEATH… the BOTH OF YOU! I am.. I swear to GOD… going to find a DULL SPOON and… cut your stupid little HEARTS out… and EAT THEM! I am going…

    Louis and Brian remain with their eyes locked on each other through all this, then, without moving his eyes, Louis fires the tazer at Maggie again, and down she goes. Neither one moves or looks at her. After a moment, Louis speaks in a very neutral tone.

    Louis: (holding up the taxer) Can I keep this AND the bus?

    Brian nods at him.

    Fade to black

  • 82. Taelyn  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Ah, it would be St. Louis. Born and raised in St. Charles county, just west down the highway aways, 23 years in what I personally considered to be quite the hellhole for a bisexual transwoman. The bullshit I got just trying to find a doctor willing to treat me was unbelievable.

    I wanted to get some friends down there, but I'm glad they were busy, if they were just going to be turned away like some sort of secret society meeting, somehow acceptable in public. I'm pretty damn sure that's public property, though they may have still rented it from the county.

    I'd like to send a shout to my old friends from Hollywood (where, I might add, I've never been happier).

    ~Taelyn
    P.S. I know not everyone gets this, but believe it or not, this is very much a transgender issue as much as it is a GLB issue, which is why I've lurked here since the trial started.

  • 83. adambink  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Hey everyone, final update posted for the night.

  • 84. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Glad you popped up and said hello Taelyn. And I can totally get why this issue would be important to the transgendered community!

  • 85. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    You need to scan that baby into your computer so that you will always have a copy to read, and then get one of those vacuum-sealer things for food and vacuum seal the original. And yes, I am jealous. But then, I was jealous from the beginning, because all of you in California were right there in the middle of all this, and I have felt as though we were off on the sidelines without a very good view. That has only made me appreciate those you who have been so kind as to share your views with us here on the East Coast even more.

  • 86. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Once again, anonygrl, all I can say is this:

    STANDING O!!!!!

  • 87. Breaking the Silence  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Ditto!

  • 88. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    And, Anna, you've done such a fine job, too. ;-)

  • 89. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    NOO!!! NOT THE GOLDFISH!!!

    Oh, we must put an end to Teh Evil Gayz! Without them to beat down, how else can we pretend to be superior?

    LOL… this is getting more fun to read each time; thankyou Anonygrl!

    Love,
    Andrew

    ps, when you're finished writing the screenplay, and it's turned into a Hollywood blockbuster… any chance of getting an autographed copy of the script? :D

  • 90. Straight Ally #3008  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    “Do you know the password?"

    "Fidelio."

    (sorry ;-) )

  • 91. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Thank you Adam and Arisha and everyone @ CC! You guys have a good night's rest — you deserve it!

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 92. GraciesDaddy  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Has anyone seen the NOM FaceBook page lately???

    They have WHITEWASHED every comment from their wall …except for a few from April of this year.
    http://www.facebook.com/Nation4Marriage?v=wall&am

  • 93. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Oh, yes, I am very envious! How lucky! Good thinking to take your copy of the decision.

  • 94. Chris  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    "Hate is not a family value." – Maggie Gallagher, in an article linked to by Sagesse, above.

    "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek."
    – Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice

  • 95. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    What?? I thought it was "swordfish". Rats.

  • 96. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    I wonder if these two guys would have been turned away? http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/tom-fried

  • 97. GraciesDaddy  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    HEADS UP, TourTrackers!! NOM lists a stop in Orlando [what happened to Tampa?] this Sunday at First Christian Church on Lakemont Avenue.

    BE AWARE: This is a *very* small [read: tiny] church in a quiet residential area of Winter Park. Parking may be at a premium and be sure not to block driveways. You would probably be best served to stage a counter rally on the sidewalk on the east side of Lakemont in front of Presbyterian Towers… just keep to the public sidewalk. WPPD is more persnickety than OPD or even Orange County Sheriff's deputies so, be respectful and *have witnesses!*

    Wish I could be there!

  • 98. Victoria  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    I really hope Brian puts on a Mickey Mouse ears hat. Maggie could wear the Goofy. Louis as Dumbo.

    If there is a god, please oh please let this happen.

  • 99. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    They are retreating to their bunkers just like Hitler and Company did back in 1945.

  • 100. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    That was moi. I kind of lost track of which post it was in, but I think we were up to 6 or so.

  • 101. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Thank you, Ronnie. You added to my education. Even though I knew about Judy's death, and I also knew about Stonewall, I did not know that it occurred on the same night as Jusy's funeral.

  • 102. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    You can have an autographed copy BEFORE it is turned into a Hollywood blockbuster…
    :)

  • 103. mikee  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    "I pulled the I am not a lesbian card" lolol

  • 104. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    You're welcome. I didn't know about the funeral either…I found out about that today, when looking for a quote…such coincidences can not be mistakes…..<3…Ronnie

  • 105. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Good one, Kathleen!

  • 106. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    They really are going into hiding, aren't they?

  • 107. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Thank you all for all your hard work!

  • 108. Owen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Off-topic but on-topic:

    Anyone who cares about the fight for equality in New York, and was as disheartened as I was to see what happened there last December, should read this:
    http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/07/9-candidates-

    They also forgot Igor Oberman, a Democrat running in the primary against Senator Carl Kruger (who voted against marriage equality).

  • 109. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    LOL @ SA3008,

  • 110. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Well, you are just too fabulous to be a coincidence anyway! All of us here are too fabulous to be coincidences. We are all children of the light!

  • 111. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Probably. After all, not only are they holding hands, but one of them is in a dress with a veil! LOL

  • 112. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    When you have to hide 'the truth', it becomes clear that you don't actually have 'the truth' on your side :)

  • 113. RebeccaRGB  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    If robosexual marriage is legalized, imagine the horrible things that would happen to our children. Then imagine we said those things, since we couldn't think of any.

  • 114. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    I agree Kathleen :)

  • 115. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Huh, with lines like (referring to genesis) 'Not everyone believes the bibles account, yet history itself shows that this was how it was from the beginning just as the scripture states.'…

    I can see how it would have been picked to pieces :)

  • 116. Anna Bryan  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    Maybe Brian and louis nipped into Best Buy to pick up a few iPhones so that they could post pictures and video from their next marriage rally? That's the only reason I can think of that they didn't live tweet from the event and post their tirade afterwards.

    You don't think they saw the survey that showed that 80% of the comments regarding Prop 8 decision was positive for marriage equality and then decided that they were on the loosing side of the battle do you?

    I really need some new material, and was hoping that they would post something.

  • 117. gloria  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    I was at the STL NOM rally and the 'reports' by this site is outrageous. First of all, I was interviewed by Tour Tracker and given a line…you presented yourself as if you might even be a NOM supporter so I inquired and discovered and suspected that you were not, but I allowed the interview anyway…my purpose was to state my stand and belief and if you made it possible, even under another agenda, then so be it. I was strangely asked if I was given a 'password' and if I had been invited…. As if this has any relevance anyway. It's obvious someone's imagination was working overtime. The LGBT community was mixed. We had some in depth conversations with a few of them, some slurs behind our back and some angry hecklers. The police officer mentioned told us ALSO that we would have to move along, so your report is skewed, making it appear as though she was being unfair to your side. All in all, I enjoyed the experience of sharing the truth of the gospel with others, some were very sad and seemed fearful but not because they thought we would cause them any harm, it was obvious we had no intention. The gospel is fearful to hearts that know they are in opposition to God – our joy was to present that Jesus died for their sins, too.

  • 118. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    I lol'd

  • 119. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Interesting. … Favorite quote:
    "That’s why the hatred…the harassment…the attempts to bully have actually created a huge echo chamber of people flocking to the National Organization for Marriage."

    all the people flocking to NOM. LOL

  • 120. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Yes… but the more they go into 'bunker mode', the more obvious their bankrupt moral position becomes.

  • 121. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Okay. That was just hilarious. Poe's Law in action.

  • 122. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    @Richard: or even just let us listen in without asking questions…

    @anonygrl: I will look forward to it :)

  • 123. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    That's great for you. But Jesus didn't die for my sins. It's irrelevant to my religious beliefs. The "gospel" is used to put fear in people not the other way around, it has been used time & again to spill blood all in the name of "God" & that is a proven fact. The fear people have of the "gospel" has nothing to do with people thinking or even knowing they are in opposition to "God". The fear is of people who use it to demonize them, spread hate towards them, create violence towards them. That is a fact. Not opinion, not hearsay, not speculation. Just plain proven fact.

    <3…Ronnie

  • 124. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Talk about a bunker mentality.

  • 125. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    I second that!
    LOL!

  • 126. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Another BRILLIANT installment. I can't believe I haven't been saving these. Anyone have a copy of all of them they're willing to email to me?

  • 127. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    I get it, Taelyn. So glad to see you here. Hope you stick around and join in the conversation.

  • 128. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Yep.

  • 129. Mark M  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    Fanfuckingtastic!!!!!!!!

  • 130. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    awwwe…thank you…& I concur that we are all too fabulous to be coincidences….. ; )
    <3…Ronnie

  • 131. Paul  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Oh dear, your IP address hails from Nevada. Did you just run over to St. Louis for a quick marriage rally and then run home on your Lear jet to post this on the internets?

    How embarrassing.

  • 132. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    I am compiling them… and have figured out how to make them work together… with the bits that go in between.

    When it is all finished, we will figure out somewhere I can put it so you can all have the whole thing at once.

  • 133. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    I do not understand alot of what you said regarding questions of a password, etc.

    But your statement that the 'gospel is fearful to hearts that know they are in opposition to God' is totally ludicrous. The 'gospel' is a book, it cannot be fearful or feared by anyone.

    But you do confirm one thing (not like it really needed confirming), that NOM is all about bigotry in the name of their narrow interpretations of an ancient book.

    NOM's interest has nothing to do with families or marriage does it? It's all about who's god is king.

    Thanks. Now, if we could hear from some of the others who were allowed to witness the 'truths' of nom… That could also be… enlightening.
    :)

  • 134. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    I'm surprised Proponents didn't submit this document as evidence in the trial. It clearly supports their position.

  • 135. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Did you see this gem of an interview with Maggie G? She practically writes the stuff for you. :) http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/07/friday-five-ma

  • 136. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    Kathleen, you're on Rav — contact me over there if you are interested in seeing the discussion of this gem. It's pretty humorous.

  • 137. Anonygrl  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    OK… NOW I am rolling on the floor laughing.

    But you know, she is not really IN Nevada. It is just God testing us, like he does with those fossils he planted and faked the carbon dating on, to see if we believe in his miracles…

  • 138. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    The LGBT community was mixed

    Well, yes we are–and proud of it, bless your heart.

  • 139. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Gloria, it's also worth pointing out that there are many Christians who do not share your interpretation of the Gospel. I see Christ's command to love my neighbor, and God's command to Peter "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean" (Acts 10:15) as more important than Leviticus (which is mostly about ritual cleanliness anyway) or Paul's advice to the early churches.

    You may not realize that there are strong theological arguments in favor of gay marriage. If you're interested in reading a different Christian perspective, you could start here:
    http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/th

    Being a Christian does *not* mean that you have to be anti-gay.

  • 140. Dpeck  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Apparently, as equality continues to triumph over discrimination over and over again, all of us become more and more American – Except NOM : /

  • 141. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Too bad it couldn't be Edgar Allan Poe's Law in action… not sure if I'd go for The Telltale Heart or Mask of the Red Death, though…

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 142. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    @Ann S…. Talk about Archie Bunker mentality

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 143. Bob  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Bless you Gloria, for your perspective, I understand that you are fearful, being in oppostion to God, so brave of you to venture out with all your fear, for the sake of hearing the message, pray love can you share with me, who were the speakers and of what did they speak, please share with us, what things you are afraid of , and did they kindle new fears about the children??

  • 144. Survivor  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    Yes — very well put.

    I feel like I've waited all my life — a life scarred by homophobic victimization, especially as a kid — for people to finally be called out on the whole animus thing.

    You want "animus and moral disapproval"? Snag the archives of Peter LaBarbera's "Americans for Truth about Homosexuality" website.

    Also Brian Camenker and Amy Contrada's "MassResistance." They, also, drip with insane animus.

    Look up Scott Lively.

    Look up Paul Cameron and the Family Research Institute. Look up the George Rekers-co-founded Family Research Council.

    You don't even have to bring in Fred Phelps.

    I see parallels with Rod Blagojevich. They are sociopaths attempting some extremely fancy footwork (complete with plenty of sidestepping and backpedaling) after they've been publicly cornered with overwhelming evidence that they are sociopaths.

  • 145. Ann S.  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    @Andrew — those were the days, all right.

    Boy the way Glen Miller played
    Songs that made the hit parade.
    Guys like us we had it made,
    Those were the days.

    And you knew who you were then,
    Girls were girls and men were men,
    Mister we could use a man
    Like Herbert Hoover again.

    Didn't need no welfare state,
    Everybody pulled his weight.
    Gee our old LaSalle ran great.
    Those were the days.

  • 146. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Or how about "The Cask of Amontillado"?

  • 147. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    After all, they want to imprison us in closets, so why shouldn't they find out what it feels like?

  • 148. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Oh, really? NOM has "the Truth" on their side? If that is the case, why are they renting police officers to cordon off public areas and threatening folks with viewpoints that aren't the same as theirs with arrest when they try to attend and journalistically record what is supposedly a "public event"? Why are they going into the same bunker mentality that Hitler et al. retreated into at the end of WWII? And why are they so afraid of the real people, whom they supposedly represent and want to reach, hearing what they have to say? It is only because they know they do NOT have the truth on thier side, they know that they are blashpeming the words of the very man they claim to follow, that they are twisting and perverting his teachings to serve a very evil and vile purpose, and they know that they are now reaching the end of their rope and that people are seeing them for who they really are. This is why they have to hide. And then they con someone like you into coming here in a very misguided effort to change the reality of who they are and what they represent, to make it seem that they are truly about "protecting the children." If they really care about the children, then they should get out of our homes and work for full equality to get the government out of our homes before the government ends up in their homes in the same way that they are trying to force the government into our homes.
    I for one don't believe that you would know the truth if it showed up on your front door wearing a name tag. You have been that blinded by a perversion of the Torah and everything that followed it that you consider to be the holy scriptures.
    Or are you really Shirley Phelps-Roper using an assumed name here?

  • 149. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    @ Survivor. From one survivor to another, welcome to the P8TT family, a family of safety, love and compassion.

  • 150. fiona64  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    I had a very nice boyfriend from St. Charles, Missouri. He was excommunicated from the Church of LDS because he came back from his mission and, when the bishop asked for a debriefing, told him that he didn't think it was very Christian to go around the world telling people that the faith they had grown up with and loved was wrong.

    He was also pro-equality … and if he hadn't succumbed to an inoperable brain tumor at age 42, I guarantee he would have been dancing in the streets with us. :-(

    /sidetracking

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 151. ralzma  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    This is why the word "owned" has stayed around as Internet slang.

  • 152. Breaking the Silence  |  August 5, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    @Richard, hm, with what might they be lured into the ante-chamber? Perhaps an autographed copy of Mein Kampf.

  • 153. Sheryl  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Okay, went to that article. Just kept shaking my head. Where do these people come up with this stuff!! Since they keep quoting the Holy Bible, I can't figure out why they are so opposed to Polygamy. Right there in Genesis is the story of Jacob and his wives (note–not one, not two, not three, but four wives. So, if they are so keen on the Holy Bible providing us the guidelines, why do they have this aversion to polygamy?

    Perhaps BB could be asked about that.

  • 154. gloria  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    the gospel is 'good news', friend…it's not just a book
    the good news is that Jesus died for the sins of the world.
    It's very VERY revealing and powerful that such good news brings such hate mongering comments….the sentiments are palpable. Have you considered why it is so ? But then Jesus did say this, "if they hated Me, they will hate you"….

    All comments in response to my posting, with the exception of Josiah's, confirm many of the emotions and anger that we experienced over gently speaking to many of you. Again, consider why…..

  • 155. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Sorry, gloria, the only 'hate' you are seeing is your projection of your own beliefs.

    I do not hate you, or your book, or what your book says. Really. Believe what you will about the universe. I can hardly hate you for that.

    '…it’s not just a book'

    I'm sorry gloria, but it is a book. Written by human beings (men specifically), over 1500 years ago. I'm glad it provides comfort to you. Why do you use it's words to oppress me?

    Do you even understand anything about this book and what it teaches? Your words imply that you really do not.

    Also, how's the weather in Nevada these days?
    :)

  • 156. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    PROVE IT!!!! Jesus blah blah. the sins blah blah PROVE IT!!!

    & while your at it, point out one "hate mongering" comment…that's right you can't. Get over yourself.

    Your Bible is not the law & there is no Law that says I have to follow its rules & definitions. It is just a book. Nobody here has said they Hate you, nobody has even expressed anger at you, So quit your bitching.

    <3…Ronnie

  • 157. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Oh dear.

    I think I understand your problem.

    You are arguing with people about what their moral beliefs should be. You are telling them that you believe in the gospel and that they should too.

    See, here in America, the First Amendment says that you have every right to tell people about the gospel. But, the thing is, they have every right to tell you to go away. They have every right to shout mean things at you, as well. It comes with the territory.

    And the biggest part of the problem is that we're speaking different languages.

    You're speaking the language of personal, sincerely held, religious beliefs. I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible. But I will not debate you on the issue because you are entitled to your belief.

    However, the language we are speaking is the language of the law and the United States Constitution. Under the Constitution, you are entitled to your religious beliefs, but you are not entitled to impose a law upon others on no basis other than your sincerely held religious beliefs. Therefore, there must be a logical, non-religious reason for denying same-sex couples their right to marry. This judge didn't buy the idea that marriage exists for the sole purpose of funneling people into baby-making machines and could find no other purpose forwarded by proponents of Proposition 8.

    I am very sorry for your misguided soul and I will pray for you.

  • 158. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Will do, Ann.

  • 159. gloria  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    okay, Jon, really you're making me laugh here. You obviously think that I'm SOMEONE from Nevada….I have NO idea what you're talking about, but I think your over active imagination is getting the best of you tonight, my friend.

    Ronnie, read your posting..you just pointed out the hate mongering yourself…

    posting 157. My postings were about SHARING my beliefs, not forcing anyone….those are your words. We never forced anyone to debate with us, of course. I am willing to share my faith with anyone who wants to hear, they have the choice to listen or not. That's a terrible offense? It's strange you say though, that they have every right to shout mean things…really? If I don't agree with you, do you wanting me to be shouting the same to you? doubtful…really doubtful…….

    again, the sentiments expressed here for something as harmless as sharing my faith speak volumes. Please
    consider why that is…..

  • 160. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Will someone with greater tech savvy than I have please see if this 'gloria' is the same as the one who first posted? All of a sudden, her command of the language has vastly improved.

  • 161. RebeccaRGB  |  August 5, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    Oh yes! I can't wait to read this when it's all put together!

  • 162. gloria  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    it's 3rd comment, actually. since i've pretty much repeated the main point 3 times, (the gospel), I'm glad you see it as improvement. thanks !

  • 163. JonT  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    @gloria: 'okay, Jon, really you’re making me laugh here. You obviously think that I’m SOMEONE from Nevada….I have NO idea what you’re talking about, but I think your over active imagination is getting the best of you tonight, my friend.

    Well, at least you are not hating on us anymore :) Laughing is a good thing, I'm glad I could brighten your evening :)

    @Kathleen: 'Will someone with greater tech savvy than I have please see if this ‘gloria’ is the same as the one who first posted? All of a sudden, her command of the language has vastly improved.'

    I'm pretty sure that requires admin access, no way I know of to determine a poster's IP without being admin – I had just assumed Paul had such privs. What say you Paul?

    Maybe I shouldn't have ASSumed :)

    But yeah, her command of the language has improved, as has her use of punctuation and capitalization.

  • 164. Ronnie  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Um..its called your IP address was traced you idiot…..actually no I didn't point anything out. Try again.

    You are a crybaby..you're getting all defensive for no reason what so ever. But that is all you people are cable of doing playing the victim card when you're not the victim at all.

    & the whole "consider why that is…." trash…is that really working for you? Because quite frankly its annoying & complete nonsense.

    Your Bible is irrelevant. Your religious beliefs are irrelevant. They are not the Law. Get over it…..<3…Ronnie

  • 165. Dpeck  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Hi Alan!

    I just posted some stuff abotu the Boies event int he new thread.

  • 166. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    Dearest gloria,

    I have considered why that is and I offered you an explanation. Your response was not actually a response to my explanation. I stated my response in terms of legal rights. We all have the legal right to shout at one another. That's part of the First Amendment.

    You see, this is just an example of how legal rights aren't necessarily in line with what is morally correct. I don't think that it is nice to shout at people or to call them names. I would teach my children not to do so.

    Unlike you, I understand that there is a difference between legal rights and manners and understand that you have the legal right to come and tell about your interpretation of the bible, even though it is absolutely bad manners to do so in the way you did here, disparaging this website and the people here in your initial post.

    But if I were to get a law passed that eliminated your right to be rude, simply because my personal beliefs were that talking to people about your personal faith was rude, then that law would be in violation of the First Amendment. And it has happened (with respect to Jehovah's Witnesses approaching people at airports) and the U.S. Supreme Court has said, essentially, we don't legislate manners.

    Well, since I'm talking in legal terms, the same thing goes with marriage. You should not legislate your own personal moral beliefs unless there is some secular, non-degrading reason to do so. For example, if you could prove to a court that prohibiting same-sex couples from getting married actually does prevent opposite-sex couples from getting divorced, you might have a shot. But if you take a look at all of the evidence presented at trial, you'll see that isn't the case. You'll see that there is no legitimate state interest that is rationally related to the ban on marriage for gays and lesbians.

    Moral disapproval is a Constitutional right.

    Legislating moral disapproval is not.

    Love,

    L8r.

  • 167. Owen  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    Maybe they can hold their next rally at a Target parking lot and get their attendance up to about…50?

  • 168. l8r_g8r  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    And I'd like to add, we all love Ronnie here. Ronnie is very passionate and was very hurt by the passage of Proposition 8. A law passed for no reason other than to treat gays as inferior might make gay people a little bit angry. Instead of criticizing an expression of anger, you could try a little compassion. You do claim to be Christian, after all.

  • 169. Straight Grandmother  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    "bless your heart" precious, just precious….

  • 170. Lynn E  |  August 5, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    Actually, police protection is usually reserved for public gatherings. If this was a private party, how much did they pay to have officers, paid with public money, protecting them?

  • 171. Straight Grandmother  |  August 5, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    Good Morning Gloria, Straight Granmother here writing to you from Provence France. I would like to bring up a point that perhaps you ahve not considered. If you want to cling to your moral disaproval of GLBT people please do so in private, keep it in your house. Look at how many organizations, raising literlly millions of dollars there are, dedicated to to the public denouncement of homosexuality.

    These public and aggressive campaigns create hatred and animosity against GLBT people, even if you say you don't personally hate, your public moral diasproval does create hatred in many people. Witness the sign that was made by Larry who attended the NOM rally in Indianapolis. His solution to gay marriage was to lynch the gays, and he justified this with a Bible verse on his sign, together with the 2 neatly drawn nosses on his sign.

    The chairwoman of NOM, Maggie Gallagher just went on record saying that with legal Same Sex Marriage will be followed by Soviet Style indroctrination of your children in the nations schools to approve of homosexualaity. Do you see how she creates FEAR and enforced hatred and animosity towards GLBT people?

    You claim you jsut want to be so sweet and prosolitize your faith and "save" GLBT's from eterenal damnation. But your sweet little old public prosolitizing in the publc square, real or virtual, does not accomplish your stated goal. How many converts have you achieved? How many? Right, like I thought none, nada, zip. Continuing your current public method of prosolitizing does not achieve your goal and in fact has a deleterious affect on GLBT people. You are shaping public opionion and the rseults are disasterous for many people. Do you know how many people have been murdered for the "crime" of being Gay? Please have a look here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGB

    A recent tragedy is little 17 month Roy Jones in New York http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&s
    who was murdered because at 17 months old the little boy was acting to "girly." Fear of being gay.

    THIS is the end result of your public prosolitizing. It created Hatred of, and FEAR of GLBT people. If you really love your Lord as you say you do, and you care about souls, then it would be best to do your prosolitizing one on one with people you come in contact with and not as a public campaign in the public square. In other words don't go to any more NOM rallies, quit posting about this on the internet. Your actions Gloria are literally killing us. Is that what you want?

  • 172. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    Wow!
    Merci beaucoup, grand-mère!

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 173. AndrewPDX  |  August 5, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    @gloria,

    Imagine this scenario… it's somewhat outdated, but you can lookup the prejudices and stigmas that are associated with this scenario and know that this was reality for many people:
    You are different. You have something about your nature that is not 'normal'. Only a small portion of the population are like you — about seven to ten percent of the adult population.
    In the Middle Ages it was believed that a person with this nature was possessed by the Devil.
    In Swedish, it is related etomologically with infidelity, adultery, and cheating
    In ancient China, it would mean "improper" or "out of accord".
    In Latin, it's described as 'sinister'; in French as 'gauche' — both with very negative connotations.

    What is this horrible condition? It's left-handedness.
    Imagine that your parents, trying to save you from the embarassment this causes, from being unclean, sinister, or gauche, they tie your left arm to your side and force you to do everything right-handed.
    You can't write well; it takes you longer to do your homework, and it's very sloppy, and your teacher marks you down a grade.
    You can't eat well: you spill your soup constantly, making a mess all over the place, and your mother yells at you daily.
    You try to play sports, but you just can't seem to catch the ball with your wrong hand.
    All in all, it doesn't feel correct (I'd say 'it doesn't feel right,' but that only goes to show how pervasive the anti-left language has affected our culture). It's not your nature.

    But you've read the stories. How left-handed pitchers and batters are so helpful on a baseball team. How studies have linked left-handedness with intelligence. You think of the addage that, since the left-side of the body is controlled by the right-side of the brain, lefties are in their right-mind, and you laugh.
    At night, when your parents have gone to sleep, you sneak over to your desk and take out paper and pencil. With nobody looking, you start to draw with your left hand, your correct hand. THIS is what feels right. And the image that you draw is one of happiness, completeness, joy and peace.
    But you can't tell your parents, as they'd only tie your hand down even more. You don't dare tell your teachers, as they'd then get you in trouble with your parents. Your friends would probably laugh at you.
    You come to resent the string that your parents use to try to 'help' you. To you, it feels more like a prisonner's shackles.
    You KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God put you on this planet to use this left hand of yours for good — you don't know how, but you know it with every fiber of your being. But you are constantly called derogatory names, all because of archaic thoughts of good vs. evil.

    Now, multiply that ten-fold, a hundred-fold. Now, you're close to how it feels to be Gay.

    So, the next time you think you're being helpful by preaching the Gospel, stop… think… be compassionate and realize that for many here, the Bible has been used as that string.

    Love,
    Andrew

    and PS: Just as a note: prejudices against left-handed people is real, and still exists to this day. I am a Leftie myself, but luckily my parents were supportive unlike the example above. I remember how my kindergarten teacher tried to force me to write with the wrong hand — ok, my mom remembers, and I remember her telling me the story :). By kindergarten, I knew how to write my own name and a few other things, so I knew which hand was correct. I would tell the teacher 'but that's not how I do it', but she kept insisting. When I told my mom, she went ballistic and she had a 'chat' with the principle… within a week, I had a new teacher.
    Both of my mom's parents were Lefties; the story of the string being used is direct from my grandmother's experiences as a child.

  • 174. Kathleen  |  August 5, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    Hi, my fellow lefty.

  • 175. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    Yes, welcome, Survivor. I think many, if not all, of us on this site have experienced "animus" just for being who we are. But they can never take away our compassion for and celebration of one another! Look at all the dancing in the streets–and that's just for a TASTE of freedom. The real party is just around the corner, I truly believe this. And then the work of dismantling lies, especially those we've come to believe about ourselves.

  • 176. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    I remember the "Rights of the Chld"–Anita & her friends were saying it meant that parents could not "discipline" (read: beat) their children, if passed as law. Reminds me so much of the toxic parenting manuals printed in Germany before WWI (see Alice Miller's books).

  • 177. Straight Grandmother  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Very good writing and good analogy to make your point Andrew.

  • 178. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    *mmph!* I'm glad I put my coffee down before reading this! lol

  • 179. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    ummm….isn't a "private party" sort of kinda just the opposite of a "rally"???

  • 180. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Really? LLB? More info, please!

  • 181. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    "flocking"….like dodos…

  • 182. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    zomg, we will be in Winter Park that day, just about 10 blocks away! My mom lives there, I went to school grades 6 to first year of college there. I know where this church is–it is a tiny church. I am not sure how the Presby church (which owns the retirement "Towers", and is the church I attended when I lived there) views us and our civil right to marry.

    I second that WPPD are "persnickety"–it's a sleepy town, they don't have many emergencies, and if they pull you over for speeding 5 mph over the limit, just call them sir/ma'am & smile a lot!

    Fun fact: we rented a house on Lakemont Avenue when we first moved to WP in 1970. Our address was 666 S. Lakemont Ave. ….ooooh, spoooky!

  • 183. PamC  |  August 5, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    You may speak as gently as you want…but the words mean "stop being who you are." You may truly believe that your God wants all human beings to be free from sin…but for many Christians, sin is separation from God's compassion. There is no compassion in your gently spoken words, just an attempt to change someone else, without first taking the 2×4 from your own eye. Open your heart, see us as people, as individuals who love and are loved, work hard for justice, feed the poor, take care of the sick, keep our parents comforted and comfortable in their old age…all of this we do, even without your gentle words.

  • 184. The Nerd  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    I happened to be standing at the perfect location for being able to overhear some of NOM's hate speech. They kept telling their crowd that we would call them names as they passed and repress their free speech. Odd, because we had literally two of them even come near our group, and even then it was to try and "save" us from damnation.

    But that's their strategy: refuse to let us near them, and frighten them from attempting a civil conversation with any of us. Maybe they could take a break between the dehumanization rallies to get to know us as people with hopes and dreams? No… that would require a little too much peace, love, and understanding.

    Also: Yay for Steve Houldworth and Graham Matthews! Those two are literally everywhere around St. Louis where LGBT rights are being supported. I'm glad to see them featured here.

  • 185. Josiah  |  August 5, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    I'm going to speak to Gloria for a bit in her own language, everybody: please don't be put off. In the legal context, of course, this theological discussion is irrelevant, but I'd like to try to get through to Gloria and make her understand why people react the way they do to her attempts at outreach.

    Gloria, l8r_g8r's 12:13 comment is very important. What you see as hatred (and are probably thinking of as being "hated for Jesus' name's sake") is largely coming out of a history of pain, pain which has been needlessly caused by people who described themselves as Christians and used the Bible as a tool of oppression.

    You should understand that if LGBT people respond with anger, hostility or even fear to what you see as sharing the Gospel, it is because all their lives people claiming to speak in Jesus' name have shown them nothing but hatred, rejection and persecution. They have been held up as examples of sin and evil by self-righteous people who have more in common with the legalistic scribes and Pharisees than with the Christ of love and acceptance.

    If we as Christians want to share the Gospel with our LGBT brothers and sisters, we first have to publicly repent of the wrongs done to them in Jesus' name. We should be humble and listen to their stories of what the Church has done to them. And we should be ready to confess our own sins of pride before judging others. The history of Christian persecution of LGBT people is a stumbling block that must be removed before we can share the Gospel. And when we do so, we may realize that sharing goes both ways — LGBT people may have more to teach us about Christ's love than we have to teach them.

  • 186. PamC  |  August 6, 2010 at 12:01 am

    I was at a counselor training once when the leader had us do this exercise: pick a partner and introduce yourself, then talk with them for 10 minutes without mentioning any friends or family members or any events or plans involving friends or family members. Everyone agreed afterward that this was difficult to do without being pretty shallow, talking about weather,etc. Then she made the point that this is how gay people who aren't out live their lives on a daily basis–hiding a good portion of who they are. I could tell that this made an impact on people who had never thought this way before.

    No more second class citizenship!!

  • 187. Rebecca  |  August 6, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Yeah, I went to the article too. Had to stop reading for fear of smashing my poor computer in frustration. The people who wrote that have some serious logic issues.

    I was particularly horrified by the section where they say the most prolific serial killers have been gay. (My knowledge of criminal justice makes me appalled.) They've taken an even more radical step: gay men aren't just pedophiles, they're serial killers too!

    Seriously, it must be a sad sad life to make such harsh judgments and expect so little of your fellow human beings.

  • 188. Lee  |  August 6, 2010 at 12:13 am

    Oh, no. Best Buy, too?

  • 189. Rebecca  |  August 6, 2010 at 12:16 am

    I'm not a particularly religious person any more, but I was raised in one of these super-conservative churches. (LCMS Lutheran, who still doesn't allow female pastors)

    And I can say, even the people in that church realize the truth of God's Word better than these NOM crazies.

    I much prefer the all-inclusive, everyone can come and hear about God, and God loves everyone denominations.

  • 190. paulo  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:07 am

    Lawsuit time please.

    The NOMiac's may have rented the space but the officers are PUBLIC servants and not door bouncers with "lists" of people. The officers chose to discriminate based on biased assumptions of who was and was not on these imaginary "lists". The officers were out of line to act as screening agents for NOM while earning tax dollars.

    Somewhere there must be an ACLU lawyer with a minute for a slam dunk civil rights case.

  • 191. anonygrl  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:20 am

    Me TOO! I am a lefty… and had a similar kindergarten experience. I came home and was trying to write with my right hand because my teacher had told me I had to. Mom said "but you are left handed." I said "I know, but my teacher doesn't believe me."

    Mom went and had a "word" with the teacher. After that, I was left handed again.

  • 192. fiona64  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:32 am

    If they were allowing the press that they like (Fox News) and not the press that they dislike? Yet another 1st Amendment violation, such as we saw in Maryland. Who was the officer, and who is the police chief?

    Love,
    Fiona (who is more than happy to write another letter)

  • 193. Taelyn  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:34 am

    Thanks. I'm here every day, have done this since the trial opened, sometimes a few times a day, I just don't always respond. Sometimes I can add to a given conversation, but sometimes I feel like it's already been said. I think that happens quite a bit when We, The People have such a powerful message to go around.

  • 194. fiona64  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:42 am

    Dear Gloria:

    Rabbi Yeshua ben Yussef taught that his followers should do three things: feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, and love their neighbors as themselves.

    Tell me: how does haranguing GLBT people about how they are "in opposition to God" (which is nonsense) fit into those three commandments?

    Love from a straight, church-going woman who is beginning to wonder if very many "Christians" have actually studied their own religion,
    Fiona

  • 195. fiona64  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:43 am

    Exactly. Smiling, and using a "gentle tone" while saying "You are disgusting and God hates you" is about as far from Christ-like as I could possibly imagine.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 196. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:50 am

    Amen, Fiona. I hope that Gloria will have the courage to come back and reply.

  • 197. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:53 am

    Or an autographed copy of "The Gay Agenda" that they keep claiming we have.

  • 198. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:06 am

    Have you ever stopped to think about the many deaths your actions have caused by supposedly coming to us in the name of Rabbi Yoshua ben Yosef of Nazareth? Have you ever stopped to think about how your very abberations of his teachings have been behind the beatings, the slashings, the burnings, the lynchings, the suicides in our community? And all because none of you see us as people. NO, you don't see us a people, you only see us as "deviants", "sinners", degenerates. You have none of the compassion and humanity that you should have if you were truly followers of Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazareth. And before you start on that Messiah claim, I am not buying what you are trying to sell. Especially since so many of you have stolen so much from the Jews over the millenia, and have even perverted and twisted the Torah, doing exactly what you were told NOT to do–passages have been deleted and emended left and right to justify whatever your current hate campaign is at the time. Too much blood has been shed in the cause of your perversion of what religion is truly about, which is to make the world better than it was when you found it. How is your religion trampling upon my religion making this a better world? How is a supposedly Christian group that teaches its "clients" to hate themselves so much that they lie about who they really are and enter into sham marriages just to please you folks who claim to be so moral and yet want to overthrow the constitution when a ruling goes against you due to it being based on the constitution instead of a butchered piece of work that you try to pass off as the holy scriptures improving the world. Yes, we are passionate, yes we have feelings, yes this issue is important to us. This country is supposed to be about liberty and justice FOR ALL, not just the chosen ones as defined by the neoconservative and tea party movements who are neither conservative nor constitutional. Also, how can you claim to be a fundamentalist or an evangelical when you have even perverted the true meaning of both of those terms, and are instead focusing on what will best fatten your own pocketbooks regardless of who you may harm in the process.You, my dear, are not a Christian. You are nothing more than a political fanatic who is using your religion to commit a form of terrorism that is worse than what the terrorists who were hiding behind the Islamic religion did on 11 September 2001. Now, please go home and leave us alone. Our marriages have absolutely no impact on your marriage unless you have managed to defile that marriage yourself. So go home and shut up.

  • 199. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:24 am

    Again, try taking a look at the beatings, lynching, burnings, stabbings, slashing, and other forms of death that have been the result of you and others like you "simply sharing my faith" with others. Take a look again at the sign Larry Adams carried. While you may think your faith is harmless, it is far from that when innocent people are murdered either directly or through withering character assassinations thanks to your misguided beliefs. You come to a pro-equality website to spout your bile and expect us to just accept that and let you go unchallenged? I think not. Especially when you try to use that same religion to trample on everyone else's religious beliefs by trying to codify your religious beliefs into our legal system in total opposition to the US Constitution. Go home and get a grip.

  • 200. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:29 am

    EVen if it is the same IP address, there is the chance that someone else took over the computer. It actually to me reads as though a pre-adolescent has turned over the keyboard to a teenager. Same argument, just versed with slightly more eloquence. The difference between a 3rd grader and a 7th grader. It's really a shame that these parents don't watch their children more closely.

  • 201. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:32 am

    In fact, if they were coming to Fayetteville, NC, they would be able to do it in the roadway that connects the Target Parking lot with the Best Buy parking lot and have, say 75?

  • 202. Randy  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:33 am

    Wow, extreme Christians are killing Christianity. They are rotting from within. By digging their heels in and not moving along with society, they are becoming dinosaurs. Guess this is the way it has always been.

  • 203. Sagesse  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:48 am

    In Toronto, where I live, it is common practice to hire off-duty police officers for crowd control or traffic control at private events in public places. They are in uniform, just making some extra money. Could that be what happened here? If that's the case, they not only paid for the venue, but for security as well? Sweet justice, if that's what happened.

  • 204. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:53 am

    Hello, fellow southpaw. And I had teachers all through elementary school who would use restraints in the attempt to convert me to being a right-handed person. To this day, I cannot write well at all with either hand, which is why I do most of my important writing on my computer–that way I know it is legible. And I am only 47, so the restraints were being used in school from 1969 to 1975. And, like Gloria's denunciation of LGBTQQI's, it was done because of the Bible.

  • 205. Summerwine  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:20 am

    It's like 1984.

    Big Gallagher is watching.

  • 206. Summerwine  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:23 am

    False prophets, anyone?

  • 207. Summerwine  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:29 am

    Maybe they start to get suspicious when their headcount begins to exceed 30 people.

  • 208. gloria  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:33 am

    The only hate comments made on this site, have been by several of you towards me, just for the record. within a matter of a few hours, I was called a bitch, an idiot, accused of coming incognito :) and accusued of hating gays, which I absolutely do not. How is telling someone their sins have been forgiven an act of hate? Do you think you have no sin? That is a lie because ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Oh yes, ME too! But there is a Sin Bearer, hallelujah! There is one, Jesus, the beloved… The Way, the Truth and the Life and by which no man can come to God except through Him. If you hate because I brought the Words of Life to you, then you will. Because I told you the truth, you hate me,

  • 209. l8r_g8r  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:40 am

    Oh dear Gloria! I'm so sorry that you have missed the message in all of the posts tonight. You have so much to learn and we just wish we could reach out to you, but you have closed yourself off to the truth.

  • 210. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:43 am

    No, Gloria, what you're seeing is mostly anger, pain, and a little pity. These people have been hurt by people claiming to speak in the name of God, people who have judged them as sinners, an act which the Bible explicitly says is reserved for God.

    Stating "we are all sinners" is not hateful or judgmental. Saying "you are a sinner" is, especially when you do so in the context of centuries of persecution and oppression, of people being told that they are inferior and less worthy of love because of who they are.

    If you want to preach the Gospel, start with Matthew 7.

  • 211. Straight Grandmother  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:53 am

    Gloria, if you could kindly respond to my post here-

    Straight Grandmother | August 6, 2010 at 1:10 am
    It should be around #194

    I would be appreciative. It is rather unfair of you to state our point of view and not respect and respond to others who are stating thier point of view and request your response. Just in case it was not clear to you I would appreciate a response to my post, I spent a lot of time and effort to formulate and post it. Thank you.

  • 212. ElsieH  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:53 am

    May I say that you should examine your own heart for the sin of pride. Why do you think you know what God's plans are for the children that he created LGBT and that his message to them is the one you've received.

  • 213. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:55 am

    One more thing: when you come to a website dedicated to marriage equality and announce to the people gathered here that their "sins are forgiven", there is an implicit judgment: not that the people gathered here are sinners as everyone is, but that the people gathered here are sinners because of their support for marriage equality, or (by further implication) because they are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered or queer. Unless you make it clear that you are not making that judgment, any reasonable person would assume that you are. And that judgment — that LGBTQ people or marriage equality supporters are *more* sinful, more particularly in need of hearing the Gospel *from you* — is ultimately hateful, because it says, "I am better than you." And nobody's going to listen to that.

    If you really want to share the Good News, you have to do so as a servant, not a would-be master.

  • 214. Bob  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:56 am

    Really though, I can't believe, and I've said this over and over as a Canadian observer, the things I learn about the U.S., and how they tow the line for the religious right.

    "THE CONVENTION ON RIGHTS OF THE CHILD' a United Nations Ratifiied organization that has spelled out the rights of children, as in children do have rights, and all the countries that have ratified this agreement are held accountable to the United Nations, (in other words a specific situation like the death of little Roy, could be investigated by foreign countries, to check on the state of affairs regarding childrens rights in the U.S.) this is done to put the children first.

    The U.S. has not ratified that agreement, because the religious right don't want to give their power away.

    We need to fight for Obama to finalize that ratification. and join the modern world, with regard to Children's Rights.

    This is another disturbing discovery for me, regarding our neighbour to the south, do American citizens, especially parents, realize this situation, what are people doing about it. any enlightenment at least of fellow trackers position might be of some comfort. thanks Bob

  • 215. Ronnie  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:59 am

    Nope gloria, wrong again. NOBODY expressed hate comments towards you. You obviously do not know the difference btw. hate & anger. Why don't you open up a dictionary & look it up. Awe you were called names. Poor little crybaby playing the victim card as usually by people like you. Get over yourself, you self-rightous, selfish, crybaby.

    "Do you think you have no sin?" If it falls within YOUR religious definitions, then NO, because it is irrelevant to MY religious definitions.

    NOBODY said they hate you, stop putting words in peoples mouths or you look like the idiot you just made yourself out to be. You have not told the "truth". What is written in the Bible is not even proven fact. There are religions in this world that pre-date the Bible. That is a proven fact.

    Again, get over yourself & learn how to live in secular society……. : I …..Ronnie

  • 216. gloria  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:02 am

    Ronnie,
    you, my friend, are full of hate. quit denying it….

  • 217. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:02 am

    Yes. Best Buy also contributed to the same front organization that is funding Emmers in his bid for governor.
    Target's CEO has since apologized and has stated that a review process will now be put in place for any future donations, but Best Buy has not said one word either way.

  • 218. Ronnie  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:03 am

    P.S. Me being Gay is not a "sin" & you can't prove it…& whether it is or not is irrelevant. The Bible is not the law. The Constitution is. Learn it, Live it , Love it. Move on with your life…..<3…Ronnie

  • 219. Ronnie  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:03 am

    PROVE IT!!!!

  • 220. l8r_g8r  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:06 am

    gloria,

    You are not inside Ronnie's head or heart so you cannot judge whether Ronnie is full of hate or full of anger or pain.

    Most of us here have not judged your intentions or heart. We have interpreted your statements and attempted to explain to you what they mean to us.

    And yet, you deny us all the respect of participating in dialogue.

    Why is it that no one from your side ever answers pointed questions or responds when their questions have been thoroughly answered?

  • 221. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:11 am

    Anger and pain are not necessarily hate, although if left unchecked they can lead to it. Even if some of the people here are expressing hatred of Christians, you (we) should consider what we and others claiming to speak in the name of Christ might have done to provoke that.

    Several people have pointed to the centuries of wrongs done by Christians to LGBT people. Can you acknowledge these truths, Gloria? Can you follow the example of Christ, and acknowledge and even take responsibility for others' pain? If you can't, no one here will hear what you have to say; they will continue to see you as yet another person judging and hating them.

  • 222. Ronnie  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:14 am

    P.S. gloria, I'm not denying anything. I have not said ANYTHING that falls under the definition of "hate". I am NOT full of "hate". I never said that I hate you. Those were your words, not mine…. : I …Ronnie

  • 223. fiona64  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:15 am

    Hi, Gloria. I am so glad that you are back. I have not seen any hate directed toward you, but I could be wrong.

    Perhaps now that you have seen fit to return, you could answer this post I made earlier?

    I would be most appreciative. I am copying and pasting so that you don't have to look for it.

    176. fiona64 | August 6, 2010 at 8:42 am

    Dear Gloria:

    Rabbi Yeshua ben Yussef taught that his followers should do three things: feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, and love their neighbors as themselves.

    Tell me: how does haranguing GLBT people about how they are “in opposition to God” (which is nonsense) fit into those three commandments?

    Love from a straight, church-going woman who is beginning to wonder if very many “Christians” have actually studied their own religion,
    Fiona

  • 224. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:16 am

    (Just to clarify, I'm not saying that anyone here is being hateful — just that words on both sides could be interpreted that way, especially in the context of the Church's historical treatment of LGBTQ people.)

  • 225. fiona64  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:16 am

    Actually, Ronnie is very full of love — but he is justifiably angry at people who tell him that he is going to Hell because of how he was born.

    Perhaps you can explain how telling someone that they are going to Hell because of how they were born is a message of love? I am most curious.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 226. Bob  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:33 am

    Gloria, the bible is made up of two doctrines, Law, and Gospel, the law condems, the gospel redeems, so as you say your message has been about repeating the Gospel, that would infer, that you have only good news for us.

    If you are wanting to point out sins and where they get us, you need to be quoting from the law.

    I have said this before, to those who make similar statements as you, my faith in the Gospel, which speaks of Grace as a free gift, and where God says he will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy (meaning quite clearly his choice is not dependent on a report from you or anyone else about my sins) he chooses, and his Grace is a free gift, in spite of not because of my efforts to do the right thing.
    My faith in the Gosel message of grace and mercy, trump your faiath in the law, any day, I'lll stake my life on it.

    You are a little confused in attempts at preachinn about sin by quoting from the Gospel, look to the Law for that.

    I do appreciate your enthusiasm, and willingness to come on this site , I feel you have sincere motivation, just a llittle misunderstanding about the book your quoting.

  • 227. PamC  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:47 am

    @Gloria, I am a big fan of Bob, and I respect and care about his opinions and feelings. He always tries to find common ground, and gives others the highest benefit of the doubt as to motives, etc.

    But I disagree with one thing my friend Bob says here: I don't believe you are sincere. If you have the opportunity and the courage, go see "Lord, Save Us from Your Followers," which is playing at thousands of churches around the nation. There you will see the difference between words and deeds, the difference between giving lip-service and actually helping real people.

    Just coming to this web site and telling us that we are all sinners and Jesus died for our sins (which is only part of the kerygma) is not enough. To truly be like Jesus, you need to be among us in person, look into our eyes, hear our stories of hurt and courage–meet us where we are. Jesus hung out in bars and around prostitutes. He did not shun anyone. He did not judge.

    See us as people. Answer our questions. Listen. You could learn a lot for us.

    OR, you could turn tail and leave, crying about name-calling and hateful words, and feel in your heart that you were persecuted for doing God's work. Sorry, sister, when you've gone into Cabrini Green and tutored children who are in the 7th grade and cannot read, or made over 100 calls to parents in the last 20 years to let them know their child has said they want to kill themselves and then worked to get that child help from an overcrowded mental health system, and spent years meeting with the child and teachers to keep that child emotionally healthy and connected to parents, teachers, and peers–then you've done God's work.

    Go re-read the book of James. Your religion says you are saved by grace, not works, but nowhere does it say to stop doing God's work.

  • 228. Bob  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:09 am

    the timing for little Roy, was the same as the ruling for prop8, guess the incident got overshadowed, if I new how to post the link, I would post the story every day, till there was some response, in a meaninfull manner from this site.

  • 229. Bob  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:19 am

    Thanks for that PamC, and thanks for your concern and work with the children.

    Could you go to my post 78 above, regarding the "convention on the rights of the child", and the failure of the U.S. to ratify.

    I would appreciate any input you have about that situation regarding the rights fo children, and how they are presently second to religious rights in America.

  • 230. Straight Grandmother  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:22 am

    Seriuously you went INTO Cabrini Green? Guts, lady you have guts. That place was so bad they simply tore it down. Open prostituition, gangs, drugs, murders, assaults, Cabrini Green is legendary. Did you have a body guard?

  • 231. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:43 am

    Yes, smiling at me and saying "I love you" while you bury a knife in my chest is hardly "Christian". Sorry sweetie, you have some more reading and learning to do.

  • 232. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:47 am

    Very nice SG!

    And Josiah's comment above would also be well worth reading gloria – he's right on point.

  • 233. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:51 am

    The more I read this site the more I love everyone here! :)

    By the way, I am a lefty, and I'm proud.

    Left power! Left Power! :)

  • 234. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:57 am

    Wow gloria, you just don't get it do you? It's like you have your virtual hands over your virtual ears are just screaming "jesus!" over and over again.

    It seems pretty clear to me that there is no further point in talking to you. You just don't know how to listen, or even try to understand.

    Good luck with that.

  • 235. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 5:59 am

    Thank you, Josiah. Gloria coming in as a would-be master is especially offensive to those of us here who are Jewish, especially after the masters we had in Egypt, and to our people of color, who know all too well how the Bible and its message were also perverted and twisted to keep them in subjugation and oppression for too long.

  • 236. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:07 am

    No, Gloria, you are the one who is full of hate, and your hatred is hidden by your pride. I have read your posts and have responded to many of them, and have not bothered to hold back the pain and anger your words have caused. As Ronnie has said, there is a difference between hate and anger, and you obviously have NEVER learned the difference between the two, or you would actually read our posts and stop trying to put words in our mouths and you would quit trying to analyze us based upon the misinterpretations and mistranslations that you have been handed over the years, and you would stop putting your money toward these campaigns of hatred from NOM, which is nothing more than a money-laundering front for the LD$ and RC churches who want to function as a political action committee while still evading the taxes that a PAC is required by law to pay. YOu are totally ignoring the fact that this country is a constitutional republic, NOT A THEOCRACY!!! In a constitutional republic, you may speak in the public square about your religious beliefs all you please, but you are NOT permitted to codify your religious beliefs into law at the expense of those whose religious beliefs do not agree with yours. This is the principle behind the separation of church and state. Now, do you mind not whining anymore and going about your business and getting the government out of our houses before the very laws you want to have enacted bring the government right smack dab into your own house!

  • 237. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:08 am

    And Gloria, if anyone is in denial here, it is you, my dear. Bless your itty-bitty, pea-picking heart. So precious you are!

  • 238. Breaking the Silence  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:17 am

    Agreed! Scripture + mind apparently incapable of independent thought = Reason-proof

  • 239. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:19 am

    Ronnie, unlike many of us, gloria has probably never seen real hate.

    To her, getting a dirty look, or being called a dumbass is probably 'hate'.

    It isn't of course, but since she has demonstrated a complete inability to listen and try to understand another person's point of view, I wouldn't waste any more time with here.

  • 240. Ronnie  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:27 am

    Gloria, you're always on the run now
    Running after somebody, you gotta get him somehow
    I think you've got to slow down before you start to go bad
    I think you're headed for a breakdown, so be careful not to show it

    You really don't remember, was it something that he said?
    Are the voices in your head calling, Gloria?
    Gloria, don't you think you're fallin'?
    If everybody wants you, why isn't anybody callin'?
    You don't have to answer
    Leave them hangin' on the line, oh-oh-oh, calling Gloria
    Gloria (Gloria), I think they got your number (Gloria)
    I think they got the alias (Gloria) that you've been living under (Gloria)
    But you really don't remember, was it something that they said?
    Are the voices in your head calling, Gloria?

    A-ha-ha, a-ha-ha, Gloria, how's it gonna roll down?
    Will you meet him on the main line, or will you catch him on the rebound?
    Will you marry for the money, take a lover in the afternoon?
    Feel your innocence slipping away, don't believe it's comin' back soon"…..<3…Ronnie:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4fmM9cldA

  • 241. Kathleen  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:34 am

    Gloria, I don't hate you.

    However, your messages about sins, forgiveness, Jesus, 'glory' of your god, and all the other related messages are irrelevant to me. Fortunately, I live in the USA and am guaranteed by our Constitution that I don't have to live my life according to your religious beliefs.

    I realize these are deeply held beliefs for you and I respect that and respect your right to believe what you do. But the only relevance your religious beliefs have in my life is when people who believe as you do, try to codify these beliefs into civil law. Fortunately, our Constitution guarantees that laws based solely on one religious view are illegal and provides ways to keep our civil laws free of such theocratic take-overs.

    If you would like to state some objection to extending the right of marriage to same sex couples that is based on any premise OTHER than any particular religious beliefs (which don't apply to me), then I am interested in hearing them. Otherwise, there is nothing more for us to discuss.

  • 242. Josiah  |  August 6, 2010 at 6:37 am

    Too true, Richard. There are so many groups who have been wronged under the name of Christ, and to ignore that history is to add insult to injury. We Christians need to understand how badly we've misused the Bible, and to do that we need to really *listen* to all the people who we've wronged — and ask their forgiveness — before we do anything else.

  • 243. PamC  |  August 6, 2010 at 7:02 am

    lol, not guts, just the courage of ignorant youth! This was during college, from 1979-1981, I drove a van of 8-10 college kids into Chicago to a storefront church in Cabrini Green to tutor kids in reading and math, once a week.

    Pretty quiet place, early Saturday mornings. The one thing we did that I shudder about re: safety, in hindsight, was to visit each child's family in the projects. Sweet homes were created in cramped apartments, but the hallways and stairwells smelled like urine & vomit. But the kids were so excited to have us meet their families!

  • 244. Timothy Kincaid  |  August 6, 2010 at 10:16 am

    gloria,

    I often wonder why it is that those who come bringing "gospel" so seldom have good news.

    Hi there, they say, I have good news: you must give up the one person who brings meaning into your life, you must abandon all of your friends who care for you, and you must spend the rest of your life attempting to be someone you are not . Oh, and if you decide not to obey my commands, I'll take away your right to relationship, deny you the opportunity to defend your country, refuse you health insurance, fire you from your job, kick you out of your apartment, take away your kids, and throw you in jail.

    Good News!!

    Well either you have seriously distorted the message and ministry of Jesus or his news just isn't all that good.

  • 245. Timothy Kincaid  |  August 6, 2010 at 10:31 am

    Telling me that my sins have been forgiven is, I suppose, nice. Assuming that I agree with you that the existence of same-sex attraction is sin, which I do not.

    You see, gloria, you want to say we all have sins. But you think YOUR sins are based on things you do while you think MY sins are based in what I am.

    You can just not gossip and be fine. But in your mind I am by my very nature in a state of constant sinfulness.

    I reject that nonsense. It is wrong. Yet if you were only here to say that I'm forgiven, that would be fine. Flawed, but fine.

    But let's get to the real reason you are here. It's not to tell us that we are forgiven but rather to tell us that we are sinners (hallelujah!) and are going to burn in hell forever. You can hardly hide your delight.

    Oh, I know "I don't want anyone to go to hell, that's why I'm witnessing here."

    But that is just how you excuse it to yourself, gloria. C'mon be real. You would be FURIOUS if Jesus came down today and said, "love the gays and they go to Heaven." You would feel cheated.

    You know how I know that, gloria? You know how I can be sure?

    It's because of your activism against the LIVES of gay people instead of what you perceive their sin to be. You ain't preaching in church, gloria, hoping the Holy Spirit draws in the gays. Instead you are trying to pass laws to make their lives more difficult.

    I pity you, gloria. You think love is a word you say or an emotion you feel; but love is an action, gloria, one that is absent from your behavior.

  • 246. Timothy Kincaid  |  August 6, 2010 at 10:36 am

    in gloria's word, words have extra-special meaning. She read that Jesus said they would hate his followers so she just believes that people hate her for following Jesus.

    Of course, she doesn't really follow him, that would physically improving the lives of others rather than seeking legal harm for them and it would involve loving others as oneself rather than seeking legal preference. But she likes to think that she does.

    And if someone says anything less than congratulatory, well that's "hate", just like Jesus said.

  • 247. Bob  |  August 6, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Rebecca, LCMS is my families church,,, the one I left, and left my family there, The Evangelical Lutheran Church has made hudge strides in being affirming. so it's reassuring to see that shift just in the Lutheran church.

    Those shifts are being made in order to accomodate us, kind of cool to think that Rainbow people's purpose is to awaken sleeping religions into being more spiritual…..

  • 248. winder  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Worth looking into. I believe it was within the city of Clayton, Mo., which is adjacent to the city of St. Louis. I don't know if they have their own police department or what.

  • 249. winder  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    In Atlanta tomorrow and other remaining stops…

  • 250. DebbieC  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Your posts are offensive.

    I have no sin because I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in your god, your satan, your heaven or your hell.

    I don't care what god you believe in – you are entitled to believe in anything you wish.

    What you are not entitled to is to try to make me live by your beliefs. You are not entitled to try to make me feel bad for being who I am. You are not entitled to use your beliefs to make laws against me because you do not approve of who I am.

    Your posts offend me because you have apparently not done even the most rudimentary research into the source of your beliefs. Your god is not the first, nor will he be the last – since there has been man there has been belief and belief is different for every single person.

    There are and have been billions of religions because every single person has their own. Even christianity is different for every single person because each interprets the book and its application differently.

    You apparently want us to be governed by this belief system – but which one exactly? Quaker? Southern Baptist? Catholic? Presbyterian? Methodist? Episcopalian? Something else? Please be specific because they all interpret the book differently. Even individual churches are different causing splintering. (A large local church has split because one faction did not agree with the preacher – shouldn't they all be teaching the same thing? It's in the book after all.)

    And if we try to make rules based on your book – assuming agreement can be reached on interpretation – where does this leave the Jews? Muslims? Pagans? Atheists? Wiccans? Do they not count because they don't depend on your book?

    This is why one of the most important things in the US is the separation of church and state. This was not created as a christian nation regardless of whatever lies you may have been taught. (And if you believe in sin, does that mean the person who taught you was a sinner?)

    You are free to believe anything you want, shaping your life to fit in with those beliefs. You are not free to use them to judge me or to make laws against me.

    In my view rule "Harm None" is the primary rule – it drives most laws even if the words are not explicitly stated. And 'none' includes yourself.

    Your posts, deliberately or not, have violated this rule. Your implication that we are sinners but you are not because you have been saved are not meant to help; instead they are meant to push people down and make them feel bad about themselves while you can feel superior. You probably view yourself as a hero.

    I don't hate you, but I do hate how your religion has been used to hurt and kill people throughout its long and bloody history.

  • 251. Survivor  |  August 6, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Richard and PamC: Thanks. I've been lurking and immensely enjoying the posts and comments. PamC, I appreciated your mention of Alice Miller below.

    I grew up in the 1970s, and was a self-hating young adult in the 1980s (a time of vile public homophobia — from people like Eddie Murphy, the Beastie Boys, and Sam Kinison, not to mention Falwell and Robertson and crew). I can only imagine how therapeutic all this is for people who grew up in, say, the 1950s.

    I agree with you, PamC, that the real party is around the corner, although the way to the corner could conceivably have bumps yet.

    I think that even if SCOTUS rules against us (I remember — will never forget, actually — Bowers v. Hardwick), individual states will continue to legalize marriage equality. As happened in Canada, the genie's out of the bottle. We're in great shape.

    Are folks familiar with Richard Dawkins' statements about "the shifting moral zeitgeist"? It's inexorable. The road can, again, be bumpy, but human culture generally accumulates more and more knowledge over time, and more knowledge seems to consistently lead to more decency and fairness in how we treat each other.

  • 252. ShowMeNoHate  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    For the record NOM had major problems getting a location in Saint Louis. They were denied a permit in the city and when they asked Clayton for a permit in Shaw Park, they were denied twice.

    So they pursued the County of Saint Louis. Who caved and gave them this very secure private Memorial Park which is owned by the County Government. Oddly enough, you cannot get a permit for the park. It's a memorial space for police and firefighters killed in the line of duty.

    So I ask, how did NOM get this space?

    We are pulling records now, sunshine laws. We are going to check who okayed NOM to take this memorial park over with a permit.

    Also, the space described in the pictures near the courts building were not part of the park. They are indeed the entrance of the government building, so it would be right of way. If someone would of be arrested entering that space it would of been interesting in court. Of course the police could always pull the, "NOM felt threatened by us," mantra.

    Bottom line, the police didn't want NOM there. It was a sacred place for them which is why NOM was asked to stay off the grassy area.

    Who knows what might turn up in the sunshine request.

  • 253. Breaking the Silence  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    Survivor; I, for one, am quite fond of Richard Dawkin's work and views. :)

  • 254. ShowMeNoHate  |  August 6, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Yes. NOM at best had 40 folks there. Mostly tea party folks in their American flag gear.

    The only change of numbers would be the equality protesters reached close to 400 by the end of the event. Several reporters confirmed it as did the Command Police post on the scene. I know NomTracker counted early around 6:30pm but the event grew by 8pm on all four corners of the city block.

  • 255. Kathleen  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Nice! I'm glad you're on this. Please let us know what you find out? Sunshine = NOM's worst enemy.

  • 256. JonT  |  August 6, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Damn DebbieC! Welcome to P8TT! :)

    Standing O from me!

  • 257. Sheryl  |  August 6, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Think Gloria has been out debated on the scriptures. Guess the anti-same-sex marriage (although it really is about more than that) think no one who supports equality for all (in all areas of life) has ever read The Holy Bible, has not been raised a Christian. I wonder where "Love thy neighbor as thy self" and "do unto others as ye would have others do unto you" have gone to. Oh, and lets not forget "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." Not letting others enjoy the same rights you have is not very Christian. And, it is also not Christian to try to impose your moral beliefs on people who are not Christians.

  • 258. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 6, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    And also from me! Welcome to the P8TT family DebbieC.

  • 259. ann lee  |  August 6, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    Christians are looking for Jesus to come back to take us out of this mess ,we know things will get worse in these last days of fullfillment of God' word. So nothing surprises the ones serving God in the beauty of holliness.But the judge that judges sometime will be judged by the King JESUS CHRIST ! at the BIG White Throne. So jump high,roll around,for your time is short,before Jesus comes,hope you will realize,,,,Ann

  • 260. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 7, 2010 at 12:13 am

    How lovely! Another troll! We will pray for you, ann lee.

  • 261. ann lee  |  August 7, 2010 at 12:39 am

    guess what,randy you are such a liar!! christians are the only ones praying for you all.their are many religions in the world.But the Christians are the ones.and you talk about Christians,how bad they are to keep from thinking how you are with perferted minds,but Jesus can still forgive you and if a christian errs,they can be forgiven.Randy what does your parents think? or will you tell the truth?
    Jesus is alive for ever and eternally.and every knee will kneel before him in the near future..and this world will get worse before his coming!God sees every tear,hope you realize,and be saved,before its too late.God loves you,no matter the name calling……..Ann L.

  • 262. ann lee  |  August 7, 2010 at 12:42 am

    whose is mad?
    Not the Christians? you need to wake up.

  • 263. Richard A. Walter (s  |  August 7, 2010 at 12:57 am

    Oh, really. So you are saying that as a Jew, I do not have a true religion? You are saying that your religion is the only one? That right there proves that you are part of a cultic sect, because cults are known for the belief that they are the only ones with the truth, and that everyone else is going to hell. Cultists also believe that their religion should be the only one to influence the law. In other words they want a theocracy, rather than a constitutional representative republic. You come to a pro-equalitry website and start spouting off your 'Holier than Thou" attitude and then accuse US of Lying? I think you need to go back to the words of Rabbi Yoshua ben Yosef of Nazareth regarding taking care of the beam in your own eye before you worry about the mote in your brother's eye. But then again, that probably doesn't bother you, because you can't even see us as human enough to be your brothers and sisters, because you have been so thoroughly brainwashed that you probably believe that even you yourself deserve to be a second-class citizen and have to turn over your entire paycheck to your husband and live on the streets after his death because you are not worthy to inherit when he dies.
    Again, I will pray for you. Bless your heart.

  • 264. DebbieC  |  August 7, 2010 at 1:15 am

    @ann lee

    christians are the only ones praying for you all.

    I don't want you to pray for me. If I believed I needed some ritual performed – such as prayer – I would do it myself or enlist someone who I knew cared about me. Not someone who had judged me and found me wanting. The idea that you feel the need to pray for me implies I have done something wrong and need help.

    But the Christians are the ones.and you talk about Christians,how bad they are to keep from thinking how you are with perferted minds

    I assume you mean perverted. And yet again you have made an assumption based on your book that there is something wrong with me. I'm lesbian, not perverted. Perversion is in harming people which you are doing with your judgment; perversion is not in loving another consenting adult.

    Jesus can still forgive you and if a christian errs,they can be forgiven

    I don't need forgiveness since I don't believe in sin – and even if I did, being queer is not a sin.

    Randy what does your parents think? or will you tell the truth?

    This is the most offensive thing you have said. What are you doing? Trying to threaten him with your book? Your judgment? The possible disapproval of others? If he doesn't agree with you his family will not love him anymore? This threat of yours is evil and pointless.

    (And I'm out to everyone – without fear of disapproval or retribution. If their beliefs cause them to have issues, then it is up to them to rethink them. Is it more important to have me in their lives or their prejudice? I'm willing to wait for them to grow up – I have plenty of friends without exposing myself to their hatred. And don't kid yourself – prejudice is hatred.)

    God loves you,no matter the name calling

    You are the one who has been name calling Ann. You called Randy a liar for making an observation that did not call anyone names yet expressed an opinion you did not agree with.

  • 265. Josh  |  August 7, 2010 at 1:23 am

    LOL that was hilarious!!

  • 266. Ronnie  |  August 7, 2010 at 2:01 am

    NO, ann lee, you Fascist pig, YOU ARE WRONG!!!!….some stupid little scared, illogical, irrational, cry baby, un-American fundamental (ugly inside & out) "Christians" like you (non-human) are doing what you say. & its not working. Keep it to yourself & Get over it!

    There are Christians & people of all Faiths who are heterosexual that support Marriage Equality whether you like it or not. I will not be Judged by your "Jesus", because I do not follow that religion & that is my Constitutional & Human right to do so.

    As for that "Christian's are the only one who are praying" bull shite, shows how fraking stupid you are & not following a damn thing going on in this country. Here in NJ it's not so much Christians but a very minuscule group of Hasidic Jews. Whatever, religion is irrelevant because its not the Law. The Constitution is the Law & if you don't want to live as an honest American according to the Constitution then I suggest you move.

    Nice personal attack at Randy, btw……..My mother supports me & doesn't believe I'm going to "Hell" because I am Gay. My 200+ family & close friends support me as well. They are of all faiths including Christians as well as all races; I have a very large extended family & I don't have to explain how all races are included in family. Let's just say that's why America is called the melting pot of the world, because there are ALL races, ALL nationalities, ALL faiths, ALL orientations.

    ann lee, If you want to live in a country where people only look, act, live, believe, & define everything exactly like you, then you can leave this country. It's obviously not a perfect fit for you. I don't mind if you stay, because this is America where your freedoms are just as equal as mine are, whether you like it or not.

    & trust me, I will NEVER kneel for anybody or anything…Your Jesus is not the higher power I worship & follow….& you need to learn how to respect other people's religions & not force your's on everybody else…..<3…Ronnie

  • 267. Ronnie  |  August 7, 2010 at 2:10 am

    NO, ann lee, It is you that needs to wake up…& yes it is not Christians who are mad..since there are Christians who support Equality….It's anti-gay homophobic Bigots who are getting mad…& their craziness is coming out…but you should know that since you are one of them as is evident in the rest of the drivel you posted on this thread….<3…Ronnie

  • 268. Ann S.  |  August 7, 2010 at 4:53 am

    @Ann Lee, if you "know things will get worse in these last days of fullfillment of God’ word" (oops, you're missing an "s" and you have an extra "l" in there), then I guess you can look at it that we're just helping things along.

    Love,
    Ann S., straight ally, married to the same man over 30 years

  • 269. VIDEOS: Brian Brown spins&hellip  |  August 7, 2010 at 7:00 am

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  • 270. Frank  |  August 9, 2010 at 4:06 am

    I was there, walked right up and informed an officer I was supporting the event. He allowed me access to the stage – no hassle. I counted about 60 supporters and 1/2 that many rainbow bright contestants on the street. Brian's a great guy, got to meet him after the event. Kudos to the police for keeping the peace. Allowing the opposition into the center area would have just gave them an opportunity to show their "true colors" (anger and hate) as they have done in past NOM events.

  • 271. Ronnie  |  August 9, 2010 at 4:15 am

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