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NOM outnumbered again: Despite largest turnout of tour, NOM fails to outdraw equality supporters in St. Paul, MN

NOM Tour Tracker Right-wing

By Arisha Michelle Hatch

Today, NOM Tour Tracker is coming to you from the Twin Cities. Our team is on the ground in St. Paul, MN, the 11th stop on the NOM tour. And for once, NOM did a decent job of getting its supporters out.

In the largest NOM turnout to date, I hand-counted 163 NOM supporters before I stopped to file this blog post. And Brian Brown’s just giddy about  it.

“They told us, you can’t protect [traditional] marriage in California,” he said, laughing.  “We passed it [...] They said Maine is a [liberal] state, we beat them worse.”

Despite this, NOM supporters were still outnumbered by supporters of equality. A hand-count total of 217 equality supporters showed up to outnumber NOM supporters. The largest contingent of equality supporters stood behind the NOM rally before marching up the steps and inside the State House for a rally. 33 equality supporters have stayed behind, silently holding signs and rainbow flags. Brian acknowledged the local equality organizations’ commitment to have a “peaceful and respectful” counter-protest.

I videotaped one NOM supporter approach the young children of a lesbian counter-protestor with a magic trick.  He held up a red and blue card.

“Which card is longer?”

The guardian of the children intervened.

“Don’t talk to my children.”

The man demonstrated the card trick for me.  On the back are a copy of the Ten Commandments.

We’ll post that video later today. Below is a photo of the anti-equality rally:

Anti-equality supporters in St. Paul

UPDATE BY ADAM (10:51 PST): More photos are coming in. Here’s one of the rally inside the Minnesota State Capitol rotunda (which I recently learned has the 2nd-largest self-supporting marble dome in the world… you can guess the largest in the comments):

Pro-equality rally inside the Minnesota Capitol Rotunda

Equality supporters outside:

St. Paul, MN: All men are created equal

Equality supporters in St. Paul, MN

Here’s a photo of equality supporters remaining outside the NOM bus:

Equality supporters outside the NOM rally

UPDATE BY ADAM (11:32 PST): Minnesota Public Radio reports that NOM is airing TV ads targeting candidates in the Minnesota gubernatorial race:

The question of whether to legalize same-sex marriage has come up in the governor’s race. The National Organization for Marriage began airing TV ads targeting the gubernatorial candidates in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, including Democrats Margaret Anderson Kelliher, Mark Dayton and Matt Entenza and Independent Tom Horner.

Same-sex marriage came up again as an issue on Tuesday after campaign finance reports showed Target Corp. gave money to an organization backing Republican Tom Emmer for governor. Emmer has opposed efforts to give same-sex couples equal rights, including letting them marry.

Target, which has supported the GLBT community, responded to complaints over the donation, saying its support of the community is ‘unwavering.’

Same-sex marriage isn’t likely to be on the minds of many primary voters, but once the slate of candidates is decided Aug. 10, it’s possible voters could hear more about it.

Advocates in favor of same-sex marriage believe it could become legal in Minnesota if voters elect a DFL governor and if the DFL Party is able to keep its majority in the state Legislature.

Meanwhile, a group of same-sex couples has filed a lawsuit to try to get the court’s to overturn Minnesota’s law against same-sex marriage. That effort could take several years to run its course.

This is why turning out to counter NOM’s message is so important. While NOM’s ads are on TV in Minnesota, real people are on the ground showing the strength of their support for the freedom to marry for same-sex couples.

UPDATE BY ADAM (11:41 PST): Elsewhere, the Minnesota Star-Tribune reports on Brian Brown’s comments (h/t to Lesbians Love Boies in the comments for the link):

NOM President Brian Brown praised Minnesota’s gay marriage advocates for avoiding a confrontation. “We need to have civil debate. This is an emotional issue,” Brown said. “In other cities, we have not seen this kind of civility.”

Brown said he wants to see Minnesota join the states that have passed a constitutional marriage protecting traditional marriage. “We want Minnesota to be number 32,” he said.

Editorial note: Minor typo in the Star-Tribune piece which I believe should read “constitutional amendment

Two notes. First is that Brian is incorrect that 31 states have passed a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. Last fall, Maine voted to repeal a law which was enacted by the duly elected legislators and governor of the state, which is different than a constitutional amendment. Second, while many states have enacted such bans, other states like Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire, enacted equality through the legislative process, while other jurisdictions like California, New York and the District of Columbia voted to legalize the freedom to marry in one or more houses of the legislature.  The point is that people like Brown always complain about judicial activism and demand that legislators vote, and when the duly elected legislators of the state go against them, they complain about that and demand a people’s vote. One day, they will run out of that excuse, too.

UPDATE BY ARISHA (3:08 PST): OutFront Minnesota held a short press conference and rally inside the rotunda of the Capitol building.  Speakers, including several OutFront organizers, an out lesbian minister, and a straight father, addressed the crowd.  Inside, 184 equality activists gathered.

“The National Organization for Marriage has launched a nation-wide campaign attacking the notion of fairness and equality for same-sex couples,” Monica Meyer, Interim Executive Director of OutFront Minnesota said in a statement.  “This backward-looking effort is increasingly out of step with the realities on the ground and the opinions of many Minnesotans. Supporters of marriage equality will be inside the Capitol, where we are at other times of the year, standing for equality and inclusion.”

“How do I explain to my grandchildren that when they cross a state line that this is grandma’s wife, but when [we] cross back over the state line, it’s like we’re invisible?” the minister asked the audience.

“I’m here today because I have a son and I don’t know if my son will be gay or straight, but whatever he chooses I want him to have the same rights as all as his friends do,” said the straight father.

An OutFront Minnesota organizer led a familiar and moving chant (one that we often to do with Courage Campaign members, and my personal favorite organizing chant of all time):

“It is our duty to fight.  It is our duty to win.  We must love each other and protect each other.  We have nothing to lose but our chains.”

At the conclusion of the equality event, activists went back outside, lined the NOM rally in a semi-circle and turned their backs to the speakers in a silent counter-protest.

Outside, Brian Brown was giddy and despite his insistence otherwise, even his speakers are becoming more fringe.

“America is becoming a nation of bastards,” one NOM speaker stated from the podium to applause from the crowd.  “You can dress a pig in a tuxedo, but it’s still a pig,” he continued.

We also met with Father Michael Becker, a Catholic priest whose main argument against homosexuality was centered around the practice of anal and oral sex.  According to Father Becker, anal and oral sex lack dignity because they abuse their partners as instrumentalities of pleasure for non-procreative potential.

He said it, not me.

We’ll upload this video and others, including Brown’s response to whether he endorsed lynching homosexuals (as suggested by a NOM supporter in Indianapolis).

UPDATE BY ADAM (3:47 PST): I’ve got to share a few videos with you, the first being possibly the most moving and powerful one, from an OutFront Minnesota organizer. Watch her lead the crowd in a chant and her speech about why we fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcCTDSZAeYk]

And

In the extended entry, you can find an interview with Monica Meyer, the interim executive director of OutFront Minnesota whom Arisha quotes above. Click on (more…):

Here’s Monica discussing why they held their rally in the rotunda, and what she thinks of NOM:

239 Comments Leave a Comment

  • 1. Ķĭŗîļĺę&  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:49 am

    Submarinelling

  • 2. JustSubscribing  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:52 am

    Trying to subscribe again.

  • 3. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:52 am

    So they think that they are allowed to teach hate to our children, yet we are not allowed to teach love to theirs.

  • 4. Ronnie  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:53 am

    I guess those 163 NOMos don't have jobs….yeah?….rofl

    <3…Ronnie

  • 5. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:55 am

    busscribing

  • 6. Alan E.  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:55 am

    This is great! Keep the pics and video coming =)

    On another topic–although on the subject of incendiary language–check out this article discussing Glenn Beck's rhetoric and the results it gets. Yes, Beck can wipe his hands clean because he didn't tell anyone to do anything specific, but the way he tells it, as well as how often, is what fuels the rage that like-minded supporters use to cause real harm.
    http://mediamatters.org/blog/201007270004

  • 7. Sagesse  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:56 am

    Let me get this straight (well, it is the word), they won't engage an adult in conversation, but it's ok to approach someone else's kids. Obnoxious.

  • 8. Dave in CA  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:57 am

    Posted in yesterday's thread, then I saw today's had opened, so apologies, but once more:

    Since they have taken to putting up police tape and holding their rallies “by invitation only for our supporters only” (LOL!) and yet in public spaces – here’s what I would love to see:

    Have some protesters arrive dressed and behaving AS IF they are NOM supporters. Get inside the police tape. Mingle with the NOM supporters. Tell them that you are here, with them, to support marriage. Look like them, behave like them, seem in all ways to be just like them.

    Gradually move into place at the front of the crowd, near the podium. Then, after their presentation begins, on a predetermined cue, remove your outer shirts to reveal bold rainbow, marriage equality, t-shirts. Do it while one of their guest speakers has the podium, not during Maggie or Brian’s blather.

    Pair off into same sex couples, hold hands, show your love and show them that we are here, we are already in your midst, we are your neighbors, we look and behave just like you, but we are NOT afraid to show who we are. Hand out one sheet flyers: “Equality means everybody” and “Did my marriage hurt yours?” and so on. Infiltrate and then reveal the truth from inside their midst.

  • 9. Greg  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:02 am

    Haha, first thing I thought of too!

  • 10. Ann S.  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:04 am

    Way to represent, Minnesota!

  • 11. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:08 am

    Nice work Minnesota! You are holding up the banner well! Every time we stand up and say we will not let their attempted oppression pass unremarked, we strike another blow for equality! Good for you, and thank you!

  • 12. RJ  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:11 am

    Only in America can you find a deck of cards with the ten commandments printed on the back of them… because nothing screams "I'm a Christian" like mixing gambling, magic tricks, and card games with tenants of faith.

    The religious right has hit a whole new level of stupid. They're going the way of Idiocracy.

  • 13. JT1962  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:11 am

    First, we are there to support marriage…marriage for EVERYBODY, not just heterosexuals.

    Second, with the knowledge they'll never read this comment, to the parent who said not to talk to their child, if you don't want them to hear anything but your point of view, then don't bring them to a public location. Congratulations on teaching them to fear ALL strangers. What a wonderful way for them to live.

  • 14. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:13 am

    Lets have some balloons printed up and filled with helium that say "Equality Now!" then pass them out to any children that the NOM folks bring.

    It is just as valid, don't you think?

    Better still, if they do the same, with balloons that say "One Man, One Woman", bring sharpies to write in "Not only" above it. Then let your kids have the balloons.

    'Cause really, what can THEY write on an Equality Now! balloon that doesn't look bad?

    OK… sometimes I am very even handed in this fight, but occasionally I get little wicked streaks. :)

  • 15. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:16 am

    But I LOVE your thinking there. Turn their tricks around on them.

  • 16. Heather Sheridan  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:16 am

    I finally got a paypal account set up in orderr for those that can donate even a small amount to hwlp offset this trip that My wife, My self, and our 2 boys ages 13 and 8. Our 8 year old has Autism and even he knows that he loves his two Mommies more than life itself. They both get unconditional love and they both are excelling at their own levels in school. And even my 13 year old who is well more mature above his years has no problem engaging those who want to try to destroy his family. I as a Mom am very proud of them. Words can not describe the pride I have in them. Here is the link to the pay pal account. Please if you can find it in your hearts to give what you can afford.

    Love,

    Heather L. Sheridan

  • 17. Heather Sheridan  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:18 am

    Guess I picked the wrong code. Here is the correct one. LOL.
    https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xcli

  • 18. Sagesse  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:19 am

    We may be saying the same thing, but the onus is not on the parent to keep the child out of public places, lest they be confronted with offending views. The onus is on the Christianist not to approach or speak to someone else's child uninvited.

  • 19. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:23 am

    JT1962, it was a NOM adult who approached Marriage Equality children (who was also trying to give them a religious lesson through sleight of hand trickery.)

  • 20. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:27 am

    Gay vs. straight marriage rallies at capitol

    Supporters of traditional marriage and gay marriage turned out in equal numbers Wednesday to take part in simultaneous rallies on the State Capitol grounds.

    Quote from article: Sen. John Marty, DFL-Roseville, was standing by to speak to supporters of gay marriage. Marty has proposed a bill that would authorize gay marriage in Minnesota, and said he believes such a bill will pass soon.

    He said that the opposition to gay marriage in Minnesota has eroded significantly in the past six years.

    "The other side is on the wrong side of history," Marty said.

    Read More: http://www.startribune.com/local/99480009.html?el

  • 21. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:28 am

    NOM's large turnout (and the equality supporters', in part) is directly attributable to two things:

    1. NOM already has an ad campaign, scaring people about the "frightening" possibility of the next governor bringing ssm to Minnesota.
    2. SSM is an issue in the upcoming election – likely Democratic candidate Mark Dayton is willing to pass it, and the legislature already leans towards it.

  • 22. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:29 am

    Oops, meant to put that in a separate reply. Same thought, though.

  • 23. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:29 am

    JT1962,

    I agree with your first point entirely. Marriage IS for everybody, heterosexuals included, and we are there to support that.

    I disagree on your second point. Lots of folks DO read these comments (Hi Louis!) but more importantly, I say kudos for that parent bringing a child to a protest to show them how and why such a thing occurs. And kudos for shielding the child, in the meanwhile, from the candy coated vitrol that can emerge from someone preaching at a child too young to understand what is behind the preaching.

    Hopefully that parent can explain to the child what was going on, but obviously if putting a fear of all strangers in their head was the goal, the kid WOULD have been kept at home, not brought out in public.

    Introducing a child to the fact that there IS controversy in the world, and showing that we do what we can to make it better, but doing it in a way that protects the child is truly a wonderful way for them to live.

  • 24. Regan DuCasse  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:31 am

    Even up until that shouting match with Brian Brown, the message has been about love, equality and justice.
    There message is about exclusion, discrimination and neglect of the real factors destructive to families.

    Tried to get Brian Brown to have a conversation about domestic violence, and why doesn't he focus his energy THERE?

    No sale. If marriage needed protecting, it's not from people whose message is love and justice.

  • 25. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:32 am

    I agree that the "stranger" was in the wrong approaching children. Even in 1976 my mother told me not to talk to strangers. The guy should have known that and behaved accordingly. Additionally, imho I believe this "stranger" acted with forethought & malice to try and "save" this child from their "evil" lesbian parents, cuz, dontchaa know, just the SIGHT of the commandments is enough to cure and/or protect you from catching "the gays."

  • 26. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:34 am

    Which really shouldn't the point… I think it cuts both ways… If the reverse were true and some Equality person went to preach at a NOM kid uninvited, I would be fine with that parent saying "Do not speak to my child" too. I might be saddened by it, as perhaps, was the magic trick guy, that he was not able to share the truth as he sees it with this child, but I would completely understand it.

  • 27. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:34 am

    … shouldn't be the point…

  • 28. Sagesse  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:38 am

    Owen,

    Not being a MN resident, from what I read, marriage equality is very much a front burner issue in MN with a reasonable chance of passing. Do I read that right?

    Hence NOM's activism and ongoing ad campaign, similar to their involvement with electoral races in California.

  • 29. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:38 am

    Oh, btw, Hi Louis et al, bless your hearts. Pardon me for forgetting my manners. How nice to see you. Isn't that right Fiona?

    <3 jeremy

  • 30. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:40 am

    Their thin veneer of civility is sickening. You can practically see the fake smile on her face when she says that she is glad that they can have a civil, peaceful dispute. And of course it puts the burden on the counter-protesters to behave, when they are under no such obligations.

  • 31. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:40 am

    The reason I mentioned to JT about who the parent was, was this statement, "Second, with the knowledge they’ll never read this comment, to the parent who said not to talk to their child, if you don’t want them to hear anything but your point of view, then don’t bring them to a public location."

    I think JT thought it was a NOM child being approached by us…I was just mentioning that it wasn't, not really giving my opinion.

    But my opinion is: children are going to be exposed to many things in life. This is one thing I would want my children to see and experience.

  • 32. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:41 am

    The ten commandments also say nothing at all about "the ghey". Just typical weird religionist behavior.

  • 33. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:42 am

    I'm not a Minnesota resident either, but that is what I'm told. Supposedly, that state's very legislature is very blue. I suppose there's a possibility of the legislature changing enough to thwart the issue, but it seems unlikely. I think they wanted to pass SSM, but it would have been vetoed by Republican gov. Tim Pawlenty.

    The major Democratic and Independent candidates all support it. The Republican opposes and has NOM's endorsement. NOM has tried to heavily polarize and politicize the fight. I think it will backfire on them. People care more about the economy these days. Even the issue of abortion incites much more passion than SSM.

  • 34. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:44 am

    OT:

    Survey: Strong Support Among Catholics for Marriage Equality

    A survey of Catholics in the state of California shows that a significant percentage support marriage equality for gay and lesbian families, reported CatholicCulture.org on July 27.

    The Public Religion Research Institute polled 3,000 Catholics in California on the question, and discovered that among Caucasian adherents of the faith, 37% were supportive of marriage rights for gays and lesbians, with Latino Catholics outstripping that number and weighing in at 44% in favor of full family parity. Conversely, 41% of Caucasian Catholics favored civil unions–while among Latinos, support fell to 28%.

    Read More: http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&s

  • 35. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:45 am

    Yes…Hi Louis! How's that blog doing? Got any readers left now that it is lopsided?

  • 36. A.  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:45 am

    I feel that taking children to a rally such as this IS teaching them about the world. The more they are part of the world, the less they fear it. It is responsible parenting. However, not letting a hater proselytize your children is also responsible parenting.

  • 37. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:46 am

    I love it! Who doesn't like balloons!

  • 38. DSV  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:53 am

    Wow, calm down man. Don't so quick to hate. Stop jumping to conclusion, or you're no worse than anyone you hate.

    Those weren't 'playing cards'. It's the ten commandments printed on cardstock that is shaped like a curve to make an optical illusion. It is not exclusive to any believe and is not considered magic unless you've burned some witches in your day. Here's a link to an example, if it works:
    http://scienceprojectideasforkids.com/wp-content/

  • 39. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:53 am

    I wonder if they are using this entire Bus Tour to make funds to match the $2 million dollar donation…or if that was only in Iowa…and they have other donations to match in each state they are going to…

    An article came out that said the $4 million in donations ($2 million original and $2 million matched) are to be used to help oust lawmakers and judges who do not oppose same-sex marriages in Iowa…but perhaps it's in all of these states.

    Just curious thought..

    Here is the article: http://iowaindependent.com/40010/national-organiz

  • 40. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 4:56 am

    Short and no meat…but at least it's an AP story

    Gay marriage debate unfolds at 2 Minn. rallies
    http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12884924

  • 41. l8r_g8r  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:02 am

    My Catholic grandmother and grandfather voted AGAINST constitutionalizing discrimination in California.

  • 42. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:03 am

    Correction: that should say "him". It was Brown who made that comment.

  • 43. Dave in Maine  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:11 am

    Don't know if it's been posted yet (sneaking peeks on this site while at work) but here is NOM's Flickr photostream with their new St. Paul pics…
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/50933783@N07/

    Dave

  • 44. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:14 am

    OT

    HRC to NOM: How much will you spend lying to Californians this time?

    WASHINGTON – According to a media advisory from the Latino Partnership for Conservative Principles, the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) is involved in a $1 million independent expenditure campaign to support Carly Fiorina for Senate, a candidate they point out opposes marriage equality.

    Full Article: http://sdgln.com/news/2010/07/28/hrc-nom-how-much

  • 45. RJ  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:16 am

    Yeah. At first I thought I would miss having the opportunity to openly ridicule him. I really don't, though.

    Hi Jeremy, Hi Fiona :-D

  • 46. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:16 am

    AAAACCCCCKKKKKKKK – Brian Brown still has on the brown suit! lol

    Thanks for the link Dave!

  • 47. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:48 am

    I just got home from the NOM stop in St. Paul. Might have stayed a little longer if it weren’t for the beginnings of a summer cold (or possibly allergies), but I think I was present for the most important parts. (Oh geez, I’m in one of your pictures! I’m the guy in the blue shirt and sunglasses behind the two women, one of whom is holding a sign reading “We hold these truths to be self-evident….”

    I know complete coverage of the event will be provided by your staff, so I won’t try to duplicate that here. Rather, I’d like to share some of my impressions.

    First, it looks like NOM managed to get a fairly large crowd, certainly its largest to date given your reports from previous events. I’d say we outnumbered them slightly, maybe by 10%, but I’m not good at estimating crowd size and didn’t try to take a count.

    Second, I was struck by how phony everything about NOM is. It’s not only the stock images on their bus, but also the music they were playing before the event. They played a good bit of patriotic music (Stars and Stripes, God Bless America, etc.), which I found personally offensive because the message it seemed to send was that their side is patriotic while our side isn’t. But the phoniness became apparent to me when they played the slow section of Jupiter from The Planets – an odd selection, given that its composer, Gustav Holst, was British – in the wrong key (it’s supposed to be in e-flat, but their version is in c; I’m a classically-trained musician with perfect pitch, which is how I know this).

    But the most disturbing thing of all for me was their line-up of speakers. I didn’t hear all of their speakers; most of us went into the capitol rotunda when “Brainless Brian Brownsuit” (love that name!) began to speak. When we came back outside to stand in (mostly) silent protest, a Catholic priest was speaking. He was followed by a minister (Baptist if I remember correctly). Both of them talked about how marriage is all about “God’s design.” The minister even said something like, “Just like a man is the head of his wife, Jesus is the head of a marriage.” (I’m sure your staff will get the correct quote).

    As an atheist, I had a very difficult time finding any connection to this message. I wondered what any non-Christian would think of that last quote. I can only conclude that NOM pays lip service to “freedom of religion” only when other religions line up with NOM’s beliefs.

    The priest and minister reinforced several things in my mind. One, opposition to same-sex marriage is generally religious in nature – unlike our side, which has both religious and secular supporters. (Of course there are secular opponents of same-sex marriage, but I still believe the opposition is primarily religious in nature).

    Two, NOM isn’t only anti-gay, it’s anti-American. They cloak themselves in patriotic symbolism (patriotic music, red-white-and-blue signs, etc.), but this is an illusion. “America” is supposed to mean “freedom,” “fairness” and “equality.” People are supposed to be free to make decisions about their lives even if others disagree with those decisions. But by trying to remove a choice for some Americans, NOM belies the very freedom for which it claims to stand.

    In the United States of America, we’re supposed to have freedom of religion and separation of church and state. NOM supports neither. Which leads to my third point – do these people not understand that the best way to ensure religious liberty for everyone is to keep government and religion separate? Obviously this point is beyond them. Their choice of speakers, who talk about marriage only as a religious rite (as defined by their particular denominations) and not as a legal right, proves it. Of course they are free to define marriage as they wish within their religious establishments, but what makes them think that they can define marriage for me? I do not share their faith. Where is my freedom – a supposedly fundamental American value – when they preempt my rights?

    I used to think that a lot of people opposed to marriage equality aren’t really bigots, that they just hadn’t thought much about the issue and would come around if only they would take the time to think about things like equality, fairness, separation of church and state, and all the rest. I still largely believe this. But I do not believe it about NOM. Not after what I witnessed today. This organization knows precisely what it is doing and what it is trying to accomplish. It is not merely misguided; it is wrong, it is evil, and it is clearly anti-American.

  • 48. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:50 am

    Really????

  • 49. Tyler  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:52 am

    I was approached by a NOM supporter before the speaker started, and she asked me what I meant by my sign, "EQUAL MEANS EQUAL!". I said that every man is supposed to be equal under the law, and there are no exceptions. She seemed content with that for a little bit as the speaches started.

    A while into the presentation, though, she came back with some argument points she must have been thinking up for 20 minutes. Confronting me, she starts quoting the Bible and talking about morals. Fine. If you're Christian, that's fine. You can live your life by the morals of your Church. Don't, however, impose your Church's morals on our laws.

    The Bible is no way to make laws in a multi-faith, democractic nation. SSM is not a threat to your marriage. It does not force you to hook up with another woman; why should you care?

  • 50. John B.  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:55 am

    Target, how could you? Do you know who shops in your stores???

  • 51. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:56 am

    Tyler, thanks for reminding me of one point I failed to make in an already-too-long post. NOM seems to forget that the Constitution, not their Bible, is the law of the land.

  • 52. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:56 am

    Paul, Thank you for the report and THANK YOU for being there.

    I absolutely agree more with your assessment of NOM and what they're about.
    (and as a classically trained musician w/out perfect pitch.. I'm in awe of that ability. I can make a pretty good rough guess at the key, but rarely can I nail it just by listening without other context.)

  • 53. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:57 am

    That weirdly constructed sentence was the result of a failed cut and paste…. :)

  • 54. nightshayde  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:00 am

    Bravo, Paul! Bravo!!!

    (I particularly liked the part about the music being in the wrong key — that would totally drive me up the wall!)

  • 55. Bob  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:01 am

    Paul, thanks for being there, and especially thanks for your insights regarding their message and your experience of being there,

    Clearly anti American, I agree they use the patriotic sentiment to garner support, but really their goal is to replace democracy with theocracy,,,,,,,,,,

  • 56. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:05 am

    LOL, Kathleen! Don't feel bad; perfect pitch isn't all it's cracked up to be. It wasn't until I was a senior in high school that I learned that most people don't have the ability (I thought it was the aural equivalent to identifying colors visually, which most people can do). My band director freaked out when he realized I could identify pitches without reference; would have told him sooner, but I thought everyone could do it….

    At least you don't have people burping (or worse) at you and then asking what note it is!

  • 57. Rebecca  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:07 am

    Yeah, since I heard that, I will definitely be taking my business elsewhere in the future. But with Target making anti-gay contributions and Wal-Mart being just plain evil, whrere's a girl on a budget supposed to shop? It sure isn't Whole Foods…

  • 58. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:09 am

    LOL. Okay. You've made me realize there's a down-side.

  • 59. Straight Grandmother  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:12 am

    Dave in CA, as usual I agree with you. There was somebody here maybe it was Felyx who advocated a mob protest. It is not at all what the naem sounds like. He posted a link and once I saw it, I thought it was very good and should be used. What you are describing sounds just like that mob protest I learned about.

  • 60. Ben  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:15 am

    The counterprotest was exciting. I guess I was wrong, though, in thinking that NOM had actually managed to get a larger number of supporters for once.

  • 61. Marlene  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:15 am

    Ah, but the religious reicht are *always* claiming that the Constitution was based on biblical laws!

    But then, the reicht always fails when it comes to history, seeing that many of those laws came from Hammaurabi, who lived a century or two before the cult of personality centered on a guy named Christ was invented by a Roman by the name of Saul.

  • 62. anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:17 am

    That is, undoubtedly, purposeful. If he had a different suit at every stop, he would look like a rich, east coast executive. Wearing the same jacket over and over makes him look more like a simple, middle America preacher type who has the one good suit, and gets lots of use out of it. The impression may not work for us, but it certainly does for his audience.

    Plus, if you have two or more suits, your salary is probably in the $100,000 range, and we can't have June and Bert of Sandusky thinking that their $10 contribution was wasted on something like that. Even as we wear bright colors,rainbows, etc., Brian too remembers that appearance is everything. Maggie's wardrobe can change some, a woman always has more clothes, but even so, she doesn't stray far from her "Mom who shops at Walmart" look, which works for her.

  • 63. Mouse  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:21 am

    Religious fanatics will ALWAYS try to enshrine their religion in legislature.

    They view their dogma as morality, and argue that there is no reason why things they believe to be moral should not be made into laws. If you start with logical fallacy and point out how "don't steal" and "don't murder" are in the 10 commandments, then it's an easy crazy leap to "any wackadoodle nonsense my religion says is bad should be outlawed."

    Now, pointing out that wackadoodle ideas from other religions should not be foisted upon them doesn't work, because their religion prohibits them from recognizing other religions.

    They are impervious to logic. It rolls off their backs like water from a well oiled duck.

  • 64. Elsie  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:21 am

    I find it hilarious when fundies yammer on about marriage being a sacred rite when Martin Luther unequivocally states that marriage is NOT a rite.

    He reasoned that marriage exists in parts of the world that are not Christian i.e. have no God (as a Pagan I roll my eyes at this, but that's another thread). Therefore, he concluded, marriage is NOT part of "God's plan". When he wrote this he specifically cited China, an obviously well established but non-Christan culture.

    The three sacraments of Martin Luther are Baptism, Holy Communion and Absolution….no marriage.

    These fundies should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant of their own religion.

  • 65. Ben  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:27 am

    I wasn't around for the music … I expect it would have bothered me (classical violinist, representing!) Unfortunately, I arrived after the speaking already began.

    When people started cheering about the « husband as the head of the family, you can't have two heads or a lack of a head » tripe, I realised that we aren't dealing with just anyone … we're dealing with a group whose beliefs are stuck in a rut from over 2 000 years ago.

  • 66. Rachel Robbins  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:28 am

    Well, its not exactly like that now is it? This is a parent instructing someone who believes her family is invalid and should be denied basic civil rights not to speak to her child. That's sorta like a person of color stepping between thier child and a skinhead. I will admit that is a slightly exaggerated example, but the fact is that homophobia is a very real danger to queer families. Nuff said.

  • 67. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:32 am

    I have been reading and posting since this site first started during the P8 trial….and I just gotta ask…
    "How do you all do it? How do you read about all this hatred and see all these images and not get so angry or so depressed as to give up?"
    I am having a VERY 'blue' day today. Just can't get past it today.
    I see all this hatred from 'them' against LGBT people…OUR people. And than I see all the hatred from us against the Christians.
    I am a Gay Christian….and a very torn one today.
    I wish the posts would not be so general in how they attack the Christian faith….it is NOT Christ that is our enemy, but rather those that are twisting his teachings to suit their own hatred. These people are NOT Christian, they only pretend to be.
    I'm probably rambling here….but it's just so damned depressing.

  • 68. AndrewPDX  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:34 am

    THANK YOU!!!!
    thank you for being there; I wish they'd come out thisaway, as I would love my chance to stand up against them and their hate-mongering (hi anyways, Louis/Lewis, Brian, Maggie, et al).

    And thank you for so eloquently expressing this. You are sooo right on soo many levels, I can't even begin except to say, "yeah, what he said!"

    And thank you for having perfect pitch (I'm jealous). They prolly used c instead of e-flat because it's easier — fewer black keys to worry about.
    Hmm… Thinking about the comments on the lack of diversity on the NOM side, this just seems like art imitating life?

    Love,
    Andrew

  • 69. l8r_g8r  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:38 am

    Mark, thank you for your candid response. I agree with you that we should not be turning things around to an attack on Christians. It is not all Christians who are the enemy. It is not Christ who is the enemy. I no longer consider myself Christian because I could not personally find logic in the faith. However, everyone has the right to their own faith. The problem that we have is that groups like NOM use faith and Christianity and manipulate the followers of Christianity. They abuse the faith and harm everyone in doing so.

  • 70. Anna Bryan  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:41 am

    OMG. This is such a great comment Paul. You rock!

  • 71. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:43 am

    HP/Compaq fired Carly for lying and other corporate malfeasance, so hopefully California will be smart enough not to elect her to the senate.

  • 72. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:44 am

    Has he at least taken a shower and washed his hair, or is it still greasy?

  • 73. Tyler  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:46 am

    I heard that and thought, WTF? Who actually believes denying rights is a right in itself?

  • 74. Anna Bryan  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:46 am

    Mark, it is up to you as a christian to hold the other "christians" accountable. They are the ones that are using christianity to damage others. Please do not direct your anger at the victims.

  • 75. Chris  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:47 am

    The bible, and its notions of morality, are irrelevant. We don't live in a theocracy.

    I can think of about five nice bloody savage examples of biblical morality that would have shut her up for the rest of the day.

  • 76. rf  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:52 am

    consider joining the boycott target facebook page, even easier than shooting them a message on their website. although that's good too
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Boycott-Target-Unti

  • 77. Tyler  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:54 am

    No, thank you, Paul. I didn't realize how convoluted these people were until I went there and heard them. I think you put it well when you said they are intentionally doing this. I hadn't put two and two together, and seen this may be part of a larger "mentality" that America is, and should be a Christian nation, no questions asked. This not only deeply bothers me, it is also dangerous and threatening to the free and inquiring spirit of the country.

  • 78. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:56 am

    I understand that…that is the frustrating part for me.

  • 79. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:57 am

    This is just the opinion of a biased atheist, but I don't really see it.

    I think people are attacking the fringe whackos who use their religion for regressive purposes. I don't see it as a generalized attack against Christianity.

  • 80. Tyler  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:57 am

    Yeah it's about now that I wish I'd have stuck around the church long enough to read the Bible. It could be good rhetorical material. Alas, it and the church's sometimes-illogical notions drove me away soon after confirmation.

  • 81. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:58 am

    I am one OF the victims Anna….and you may want to reread my post…there was no anger in it, only frustration and sadness.
    And by your own logic as a gay man it is than up to me to hold other Gays accountable as I would other Christians…

  • 82. tim  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:59 am

    33 equality supporters

    I counted 5 to 7 tops. The rest were inside the capital. Where were these 33?

  • 83. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:00 am

    OT

    Pro-family groups applaud blockage of Disclose Act

    WASHINGTON (BP)–A campaign finance bill that many pro-family groups say would limit their ability to get their message out and possibly lead to the intimidation of donors was blocked in the Senate July 27 when Democrats failed to get any Republicans to support it.

    The White House-backed DISCLOSE Act needed 60 votes to overcome a filibuster but got only 57, although it technically was only one vote short. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, I.-Conn., was absent and said he would have voted "yes," and Majority Leader Harry Reid, D.-Nev., switched his vote to "no" at the last minute in a procedural tactic that will allow him to bring the bill up again. All 40 Republicans who were present voted against it, with one Republican — Sen. John Ensign, R.-Nev. — being absent. A similar version of the bill had passed the House, 219-206.

    read more: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=3342

  • 84. jared  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:01 am

    I am not sure if mentioned but looking at the NOM supporters, does anybody realize the average age of them. This is a dying group, I just hope it happens sooner then later

  • 85. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:03 am

    Jared that is a terrible thing to say.

  • 86. Anne  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:03 am

    I was at the rally in Saint Paul today (actually, I'm the "Lesbian" in the picture posted.) I just thought I'd give you my opinion on the protest/counter-protest today.
    First of all, it was EXTREMELY well attended by NOM and because most of the counter-protesters (read: GLBT friendly people) left to go inside of the capitol and have a counter-rally it seemed scantily attended by our side. Actually, I have no real idea what they went inside, because I stayed outside the whole time with the NOM people. I thought it was counter-productive that on their biggest turnout ever, our side decided to go inside to an area where they couldn't be seen. I know that this is crowd control and people aren't always the best-behaved with emotional things like this, but I also think it is important for NOM people to see the people they are talking about. And I think that a visible counter-protest would have been more helpful–going inside and talking about gay rights to gay people is an awful lot like preaching to the choir.
    The type of crowd NOM drew also shocked me. Most of them looked like nice people who I might speak with and have positive interactions with every day..but on this day, when they are chanting "one man, one woman," we cannot be friends.
    Unfortunately, some people on our side (especially at the end when the larger group of GLBT people got done having their rally and came back to NOM) got mouthy and yelling and walking up in-between NOM supporters waving their flags hand hefting their signs. Nothing too bad, but it was disrespectful and although it's hard to take their kind of talk without giving them an earful and being heard, I think respectful silence would have gotten us further and been more effective in the long run.
    Also, right before their spiel started, they started playing country music. Luckily, I had my sister (the one holding the flag next to me) with me who, as a country music fan, was able to decode what they meant by this and what the song was actually talking about. It struck both her and me odd that they played a song by Martina McBride called "Independence Day" that is actually about domestic violence. Oh well, I guess it has a great refrain.

  • 87. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:04 am

    It's still the 10 commandments, and in this country all of the fights to display them have been championed by the religious right. It's in the form of a "magic trick", optical illusion, what have you, to appeal to kids. It's a form of proselytizing.

  • 88. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:05 am

    Exactly.

  • 89. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:06 am

    Enrolling.

  • 90. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:06 am

    Paul, thank you. My husband and I are Jewish, and you are so right. The only time NOM believes in freedom of religion is when the religion lines up with what they want. Remember that this is a front organization for a coalition between the LD$ and RC churches. The only Jews they want anywhere near them are Jews that support marriage discrimination. We on the other hand support marriage equality, so we would not be welcome in their little conclaves.
    Again, thank you for your report, and for being there.

  • 91. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:09 am

    I have to say that I am pleased this rally got picked up by the Associated Press. I just wish the story were a little longer and had more meat to it. I posted it in another post…but here is one of the news outlets that picked it up.
    http://www.inforum.com/event/apArticle/id/D9H87EO

    Like I said, no meat. Perhaps someone at Courage Campaign (0r even HRC) can send MARTIGA LOHN of AP a quote or two from our side of the issue : )

  • 92. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:12 am

    I know two queer Jews who have already called Target's home office and informed them that we are taking our business elsewhere, and we are also spreading the word among our friends. They will be hurting for sure when all the Rainbow Tribe stop shopping there.

  • 93. Felyx  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Check out SmartyPig for saving up for goals.

  • 94. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:12 am

    I suppose you would have to see it with my eyes than Owen.

  • 95. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:13 am

    LOL @ Independence Day. Now that is sad! I guess they thought it was a patriotic song – or perhaps it IS patriotic to them – I mean, didn't one of the ministers today proclaim, "Just like a man is the head of his wife…"? If they play it tomorrow someone should definitely let them know what that song means.

  • 96. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:14 am

    Did you tell her that? How did she react?

    Start by reading ALL of Leviticus. There are some absurd prohibitions right there.

    President Bartlet said it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc

  • 97. l8r_g8r  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:15 am

    Some people are attacking fringe wackos, but some posts, if you read them with honesty, you'll see are attacking all religious folks.

  • 98. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:16 am

    NOM Claims the Mantle of the Civil Rights Era

    From the National Organization for Marriage's website, NOM executive director Brian Brown announced today at the latest "Summer for Marriage" tour stop in St. Paul, Minnesota:

    "We've taken great pains to make clear what were all about. We view ourselves as a new civil rights movement … committed to something that in the 1960s was key: the right to vote."

    More Here: http://www.metroweekly.com/poliglot/2010/07/nom-c

  • 99. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:17 am

    Richard, you live in North Carolina, correct? I have family in the Raleigh area. Hubby and I may try to visit sometime around the end of the year. It would be fun to meet you two!

  • 100. Evan  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:17 am

    though… I don't recall anything in the Ten Commandments that really addresses marriage or gay folk or anything really relevant to their arguments.

    In fact, I was always taught that the 9th Commandment "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor" was to not lie about them. In this case, I would say the lies that BB and MG spew are exactly that–they bear false witness against their gay and lesbian neighbors.

    Funny how that works out…

  • 101. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:22 am

    Try "a millennium or two".

    Have those people point out how many times god is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and the constitution. When they try to use the "creator" part, explain them some of Thomas Jefferson beliefs and the basics of Deism. Maybe memorize some Jefferson quotes.

    The Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 is also nice (from 1797):
    "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

  • 102. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:23 am

    "June and Bert of Sandusky" lol, I spent 5 years of my childhood in Sandusky. Cedar Point rocked back then–!

    I think BB wears the same suit so he'll be easily recognized. He's got such a bland expression, if he puts on a new suit every time folks won't remember who he is.

  • 103. Straight Grandmother  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:23 am

    i called it when Brian Brown temporarily left the tour. I said he went back home to work on bringing out more supporters. I hope the equality folks in Atlanta are organizing like hell, I bet the Baptists show up in force. That is what he was doing when he took that break. Brian seems very happy with his reception in Minnesota so far, I have to agree with him it is very civil, Thank you to every protester who showed up.

  • 104. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:23 am

    @anonygrl. I went to Roses and bought my suit. In fact, I have three suits, and two of them were given to me when I had even less than I have now. But the suit I bought only cost me $27. And you have seen this suit. It is the one I am wearing in my FB profile picture. I learned very early in life about the 11th Commandment–"Thou Shalt NEVER pay retail!"

  • 105. Zachary  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:25 am

    You know, I was thinking today. This is all well and good, and I'm so thrilled to see – day after day – our equality supporters outnumbering NOM's crowd.

    But shouldn't we be out there already? Why does it take a bigot bus tour to get us energized and truly active? A four-hundred person crowd taking over the streets of Madison is great – truly an incredible sight to behold – but why are we only doing that when we're on defense?

    Why haven't we been taking to the streets already?

  • 106. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:25 am

    Ugh, I can't believe that "bastards" comment. Unbelievable.

    I generally don't let this stuff bother me like some people on here, but damnit that really gets my goat. These people are not only discriminating against GLBT people, they're discriminating against CHILDREN.

    Not only that, but they've twisted the public dialogue so that many people (quite a few Californians, apparently) have been duped into thinking they're about PROTECTING children.

    Unbelievable.

  • 107. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:25 am

    NOM lives by the supreme credo "Ignorance is bliss."

  • 108. Owen  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:27 am

    Ugh, again, replied in the wrong place. -_-

    Anyway, guys, I think that's a shame if that's what's really happening. I guess all I can say is: count one militant atheist on your side.

    From what I know about Christianity, these people have twisted its core message in a truly despicable fashion. I applaud the true Christians who are committed to equal rights.

  • 109. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:28 am

    Asking US for money so that YOU can go somewhere just doesn't seem right – kinda "shellfish". It causes me to wonder. No offense intended. My best to you and yours.

  • 110. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:28 am

    Believe me, Mark, here in our house, we know how you feel. Imagine what it did to us to see three former colleagues of BZ's from Monsey, NY and their signs at the Trenton stop.

  • 111. PeterH  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:30 am

    I don't know how many guys were handing out the pink and blue cards, but the guy who gave them to me was not part of NOM, but was with an affiliated Minnesota ministry.

  • 112. Straight Ally #3008  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:31 am

    Agreed, Pam. And the whole point of display of the Ten Commandments is part of the Christian Nation revisionist history, which is linked to the idea that Christianity (the Religious Right's version, of course!) is the law of the land. It's similar to creationism – revise the history or science books, manipulate the people.

  • 113. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:31 am

    I can certainly see how the image of those 3 Rabbi would have had the potential to be very hurtful to you and your huband to be.
    It's all just SO sad ;-(

  • 114. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:32 am

    Thanks Owen :-)

  • 115. PeterH  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:38 am

    Yes, NOM played "God Bless America" after the rally. The women I was chatting with noticed that the singer was kd lang.

    They cheered.

  • 116. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:38 am

    It has never been my intention to suggest that all Christians or all people of faith are bigots or do harm. However, in my anger and frustration over the harm that has been done in 'the name of' various religions, it is possible that I have inadvertently left that impression. If that is the case, I sincerely apologize.

    I also ask that if I ever make a statement that offends a person of faith here, that you will call me on it so that I can better understand how my statements are perceived and try to do better in the future.

    And, I'm really sorry you're having a rough day, Mark. :( Hope it gets better.

  • 117. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:42 am

    SERIOUSLY??? NOM used a recording of k.d.lang at their rally?

  • 118. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:43 am

    I no longer consider myself a Christian, but I was practicing the faith for almost 20 years. A movie I recently watched, Lord, Save Us from Your Followers, brought me to tears touching on this very topic, the divide between right wing Christians and other Christians, not to mention those of us who follow other spiritual traditions or none.

    We're not an entirely polarized nation, but we are very close. We need to dialogue, to have a conversation, but I truly don't think many fundamentalists of any religious or political persuasion are up for this. They have blocked out other perspectives, and it's their way or the highway.

    I disagree with Brown that protests are the forum for civil dialogue. Protests and counterprotests are about standing your ground and sending out a strong message. I think both the shouting and the silence are valid methods. However, if we could have a joint discussion, it would have to be among people without axes to grind, jobs at stake, or political careers to advance.

    At Providence, after the rally, I approached one of the older women near the people who were praying (in tongues). It was a VERY hot day, and she had on a long full length skirt and a kerchief in her hair. I said, "I'm concerned that you may need water–it's awfully hot to be standing in the sun so long without an umbrella–please take care of yourself!" Her face changed once she heard what I was saying, and we actually made eye contact; she said thank you (I think). My spouse told me later that she saw her crying.

    Not sure if we can come together, but I hope someday we can, on the level of shared humanity.

  • 119. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:46 am

    Oh, I could watch that clip repeatedly :) I miss that show.

  • 120. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Reminds me of a quote I read somewhere here on the interwebs – to the effect of: People place their hands on the bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. Not the other way around.

    Thanks for the great post and for being there! I'm looking forward to "reporting" from Atlanta!

  • 121. Sagesse  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:48 am

    Speaking of the religious freedom to inflict one's views on others

    The New Clash of Rights
    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/28/cou

  • 122. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:48 am

    To be honest, it galls me that they make that claim. But it's part of their assimilation campaign.

    Sorry BB and klan, you are not a 'new civil rights' movement. Self delusion is a terrible thing. It will be your undoing.

  • 123. Chris  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:52 am

    Yes, it's terrible and abusive to take pleasure from physical contact with another person.

    Sex is only moral if it makes both parties miserable.

  • 124. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:53 am

    Uhm… Wat?

  • 125. Chris  |  July 28, 2010 at 7:57 am

    Wishing they died a horrible and painful death would be awful.

    Reflecting on the fact that your life will definitely be improved by not having them around is not.

    I think it is possible to be civilized and recognize the clear and present fact that some people make the world a worse place to be.

    Not all life is precious.

  • 126. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:00 am

    I often wonder that myself Zachary. It only seems like our community truns out for big events, or parties (parades).
    I have been trying for the past week to get some sort of rally organized for Aug 15th to coincide with the rally in DC.
    I have put up a facebook page…sent out hundreds of invites….contacted every LGBT organization both local and national, and you know what…I have 4 people confirmed coming. I have heard NOTHING from CC, Freedom to Marry, Equality Washington, PFLAG, and many many others. No one has even taken the time to write me back and say great idea, bad idea, good luck, fuck off, nothing NOTHING!
    Don't understand it. maybe I should have advertised it as a dance or cocktail party
    UGH!!!

  • 127. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:02 am

    Oh, who are they kidding? ALL sexual acts lack dignity! If you're trying to be dignified, you're doing it wrong…

  • 128. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:04 am

    Yes Chris. Also, it must be standard issue missionary, for the *sole* purpose of procreation.

    Only. You have been warned.
    :)

    Seriously, how are people supposed to take that kind of advice from someone, who in theory at least, is not supposed to have any sexual experience at all?

    It would be like me prognosticating on the evils of a particular computer language without ever having seen or used a computer.

    heh.

  • 129. Sarah  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:06 am

    I just got NOM's email update (uh-oh, I guess that puts me on their list of supporters… well, call it a way to get educated on their spin)… It is entitled: "Gay Marriage Radicals Reach New Low." They make a quick run through the list of wrongs they have faced and how much they've been attacked… but this sentence caught my attention:

    "The NOM Summer for Marriage Tour started out as a simple exercise to bring together supporters of marriage across the country to rally in support of an institution that we hold dear, something that has served society well since before there even was a society."

    Um, how can something serve a society that does not yet exist? Nonsense.

    BB goes on to tell of our audacity to call out Larry with his noose sign, do a rundown of our lack of civility and, oh yeah ask for donations! He sure has got my money… ;)

  • 130. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:06 am

    Seems they are getting music all wrong (it might very well be that the person who is choosing the music is a homosexual.)

    They play this and I just posted a video on the Maddison page where NOM is playing John Mellencamp's "Pink Houses"
    http://prop8trialtracker.com/2010/07/27/madison-w

  • 131. Ronnie  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:06 am

    Mark M. don't be put off by the quite….I'm going to DC w/my Mother, 2 of her co-workers may be going & my cousin may be going also…I've heard Queer Rising, Get Equal, & more are planning something as well…don't forget just because things are quite doesn't mean that there isn't something in the works…..<3…Ronnie

  • 132. Zachary  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:07 am

    I don't understand it either, Mark. But don't let it discourage you!

    And also: "Great idea!" and "Good luck!" Sitting here in Chicago, I wish I could offer more than that.

  • 133. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:07 am

    …or a same sex supporter…

  • 134. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:12 am

    "Also, it must be standard issue missionary, for the *sole* purpose of procreation."

    With the lights off…

  • 135. Ann S.  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:12 am

    I certainly will be working against Carly going to the Senate, and Meg going to the Governor's mansion. Ugh!

  • 136. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:14 am

    @ Kathleen:
    No sweetie you are still one of my favorite peeps :-)
    You have never offended me with your words.
    I am not usually as thin skinned as I am today, but for some reason today is just NOT a good day.
    I'm sure it will be better once I get home to my family and can unwind..
    Big Hugs!!!!!

  • 137. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:19 am

    Yes. We live in Hope Mills, which is just below Fayetteville/Ft. Bragg. Are you on FB?

  • 138. Anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:30 am

    You GO Richard, shopper extraordinaire!
    :)

  • 139. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:31 am

    And it is signs like that which cause us to be even more vigilant about being accurate with translating from Hebrew, Aramaic, Chaldean, and Greek. I find it is also a very good idea for everyone who is going to discuss the Torah, the law and prophets, and the new Testament to also study the culture and climatology of the areas involved. When one studies the history, geography, climatology, and cultures of those areas, they discover many things that do not readily become apparent about the Scriptures without knowledge in those areas. Especially since in the last century or so we have forgotten that "Oriental" actually includes all of the Eastern hemisphere, not just Asia and the Pacific Rim areas.

  • 140. Anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Interesting. I wonder if Martina McBride KNOWS they play her song, and if they have paid her for it.

  • 141. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Our page for this was first created in May, before the NOM tour started, and we only have about 200 total from all over the US, and only one other person has stepped up to be an admin and help with any of the planning so far. ANd this is AFTER finally being able to set a date. What is it with our community–do we really think that this deal will really blow over if we just ignore it?

  • 142. Southern Bell  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:46 am

    That sentence is a very large stretch on their part. Look at the words used. They're trying SO hard to create historical roots for their "simple exercise" that simply isn't there. "something that has served society well SINCE BEFORE THERE EVEN WAS A SOCIETY." That statement is a bunch of hot air, trying to put important sounding words together to cover up a load of nothing. I'm glad you pointed that out Sarah. It makes me wonder how they define society because I am pretty sure institutions cannot exist without society shaping them in some way. Any thoughts?

  • 143. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:46 am

    My adoptive mother, may she rest in piece, was born in 1925, and having grown up in the Depression, she taught all of us about bargain shopping. And she would have been quick to tell NOM to stop wasting their money, sit down, shut up, and quit giving Christianity a bad name!

  • 144. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Well I am thrilled you get to go to DC Ronnie….we took the kids to the '93 civil rights march in DC (they were kids than anyway).
    I was speaking of there not being anything planned or any support for a rally here in the 'other' Washington…Seattle to be exact.
    I and those that I can get together will have our own rally or picnic or whatever you wnat to call it.
    Planning it for 11:00 am our time which would coincide with 2:00 pm DC time.

  • 145. Southern Bell  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Are they trying to draw a parallel between marriage helping create society? Is that how it 'served society…before there even was a society?'

    I am trying really hard to understand how they can get by with statements like that and expect to be taken seriously.

  • 146. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:50 am

    Thanks Zachary :-)

  • 147. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Yes Richard, I am on FB, although I check it only about four times per year (probably never should have signed up for it; long story). I'll hop on and see if I remember how to "friend" someone!

  • 148. Dave P.  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Can someone find out how to contact k.d. lang's mamangement and tell them about this??? I'm quite sure ms. lang woudl be pretty pissed off about it. Even though the song is public domain, the rights to that specific recording of it are owned and controlled by the artist and the record company and cannot be used for any purposes without permission.

  • 149. PamC  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:56 am

    forgot to subscribe…

  • 150. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 28, 2010 at 8:59 am

    Submarine………….

  • 151. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:02 am

    Gay Marriage Battle Lands At State Capitol

    ST. PAUL, Minn. (WCCO) ―

    [Click to zoom.] Click to enlarge
    1 of 1
    With the National Organization for Marriage's rally taking place outside, Outfront Minnesota held its own rally supporting same-sex marriage inside the capitol rotunda.

    CBS

    Close

    numSlides of totalImages
    Related Stories

    * Rally Begins For Both Sides Of Gay Marriage
    (7/28/2010)
    * National Org. Rallies Against Gay Marriage
    (7/26/2010)

    Related Links

    * Read The Latest Minnesota News
    * Read The Latest Political News

    They're on opposite sides of the political canyon, but two groups fighting over the definition of marriage became closer Wednesday on the steps of the State Capitol — if only in a spatial sense.

    Their competing rallies looked similar in size, but it was their battle over slogans and words that separated the two fronts.

    "One man, one woman," was the chant at a rally sponsored by the National Organization for Marriage (NOM). The group based in Washington, D.C. is on a 23 city tour through 19 states to drum up support. It says Minnesota is a battleground state, where attempts to open the state's marriage laws to same-sex couples is a threat to the traditional family.

    Read More: http://wcco.com/local/gay.marriage.rally.2.183039

  • 152. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:03 am

    Mark, to answer your question – I don't know. Sometimes I feel like giving up, too. I was raised in a Southern Baptist household and taught that my belief and faith in God was paramount to everything else in life. I HAD to break from that religious sect when I realized that (after countless hours of prayers, begging and self-hate) I really was created in His image AND am gay. I have since developed my own spirituality that both sets me free and binds me to everything.

    I have come to realize that the term Christian is not only overused but improperly used. The man Jesus left us with great lessons of how to exist in this world, treat each other, and strive for peace and – yes – equality. Those who chose to commit his story to paper, for their own purposes, threw in a bunch of their own crap with which we must now contend. The so-called Christians (hi Louis, Brian, Maggie, etc.) who seek to repress us would probably be the first to crucify Jesus were he to appear in this world today. He was/is, after all, a liberal hippie.

    When I hear/read anti-christian talk I put it into context. People generalize – both sides are guilty. I know what “we” (those on our side) mean. “We” do not mean those who actually are Christ-like. One need not proscribe to any spirituality to be Christ-like. When emotions are so raw often clarity of expression suffers. I focus on the fact that “we” simply seek equality in love and life and “they” want to exclude us from that.

    I want to welcome you and thank you for finally joining in the conversations. What keeps me from giving up is the knowledge that near and far – whether or not we will ever meet face to face – the people here share my feelings. They love, accept, cherish and will fight for ME as I trust that they know I love, accept, cherish and will fight for them – until my last breath! I will do no less for you!

    Welcome. Thank you for bringing us your strength. Feel free to take strength from us. And, most importantly, Peace be unto you!
    Jason

  • 153. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:03 am

    well that was one messed up post : )

    that's what happens when there is drama happening in my own state — I am trying to keep up with both today.

  • 154. Southern Bell  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:04 am

    All you need to do is watch the official McBride music video for this song if the lyrics don't make it clear. The wife gets her independence/freedom by setting her house on fire w/ her husband and herself inside, leaving the child an orphan. The lyrics and especially video are violent and aggressive. It might have a nice chorus but, hey, this actually fits nicely with their methodology:

    As long as it 'sounds good' it doesn't matter what is actually being said.

  • 155. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:05 am

    The AP story got some meat!

    Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Rally St. Paul

    MARTIGA LOHN, Associated Press Writer
    ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) ― Both sides in the struggle over gay marriage predicted the issue will come to a head in Minnesota next year, as simultaneous rallies for and against same-sex marriage played out peacefully at the state Capitol on Wednesday.

    The predictions depend on the outcome of state elections in November, with an open governor's race and all 201 legislative seats on the ballot. The three leading Democrats competing in their party's primary for governor and the most prominent Independence Party candidate support legalizing gay marriage. The Republican candidate, state Rep. Tom Emmer, opposes it.

    Read more here: http://wcco.com/wireapnewsmn/Gay.marriage.again.2

  • 156. VRAlbany  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:06 am

    OT, but you asked:
    I guess the Pantheon in Rome is #1!

  • 157. nightshayde  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:06 am

    First of all, this straight ally is electronically sending you a great big hug. I'm sorry you're having a down day & I really hope someone or something cheers you up very soon.

    I think a lot of us in the pro-equality community are a bit insulated, especially if we live in areas with relatively few religious folks. The nasty hate-filled right-wing Christians are the ones who get almost all the media attention — so people who aren't in close proximity to some really awesome pro-equality Christians can easily get the impression that ALL Christians are the nasty hate-filled right-wing type.

    Just think of how many people in this country get their idea of what gays are all about by seeing clips of Pride parades & other demonstrations in which leather-clad bondage enthusiasts & uber-fabulous drag queens get the media coverage. If they don't know (or don't realize they know) GLBT people who really are just like them, they can easily get the impression that ALL gay men are either leather-clad bondage enthusiasts or uber-fabulous drag queens.

    The pro-equality Christians and the non-party scene gays just aren't nearly as "interesting" as the outrageous ones — and what news organization is going to cover boring people doing nothing remarkable when they can focus on either the Larry Adams/Fred Phelps or the uber-fabulous drag queens of the world?

    That's why it's so important for pro-equality Christians to make their views known publicly, and for the average boring (not in a bad way, mind you) GLBT couples/families to be seen in public situations acting anything but outrageous. The more the "insulated" people see pro-equality religious folk and totally "normal" gay couples (and families), the more they'll come to realize that discrimination is unnecessary & that the right-wing lunatic fringe really is made of a bunch of complete wackos.

    Hang in there, Mark M. Things will get better.

  • 158. Chris  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:12 am

    @Jon same way they can take advice on what the universe thinks is proper behavior, from another human being who is as ignorant on that subject as they are.

  • 159. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:12 am

    I'll be in Atlanta and will give a full report!!

  • 160. Felyx  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:13 am

    NOM Joke of the day…

    Why do NOMos always look dizzy?

    Because they're always trying to spin things!
    :P

  • 161. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:16 am

    'I am trying really hard to understand how they can get by with statements like that and expect to be taken seriously.'

    You and me both!

    '“…something that has served society well SINCE BEFORE THERE EVEN WAS A SOCIETY.”'

    That does not even make sense. But then, why am I surprised – what about their arguments *do* make sense?

  • 162. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:18 am

    What a great name for a band – "IInstrumentalities of Pleasure"

    OR

    the title of Father Becker's scandalous new tell-all book!

  • 163. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:18 am

    OT

    Zahler: 'Myths' about gay parenting

    FRAMINGHAM — I would like to think that Alice Slattery ("Normalizing Same-Sex Sex," July 20) has the best interest of children in mind when she writes against same-sex marriage, but the non-facts and unsubstantiated opinions that she offers as truths do more harm than good.

    Alice Slattery holds up one person's autobiography as proof that same sex couples make poor parents. One memoir is unconvincing to the point of being preposterous. What, then, are we to make of all the cases of mental and physical abuse in families with opposite sex parents? Using the same logic, we would outlaw families with any kind of parent.

    More at: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinions/letter

  • 164. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:20 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utTXA5XIOOA

  • 165. Southern Bell  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Also, did a quick search of "Martina McBride & GLBT" and got this gem. It says nothing of her feelings toward same sex marriage but it does mention tolerance. Not a word we usually go for but it still seems a step above NOM's platform no matter what they say.

    "Your core audience is mostly made up of conservative, straight, Middle Americans. Would you tell them to be more tolerant of gay people? :
    Honestly, I just have to do what’s right for me, and what I would tell people is what I believe, which is that I feel like tolerance is very important. I have three daughters and that’s what I teach them. I think we should all be tolerant of each other and embrace each other’s strengths and differences and uniqueness and beauty.
    http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=1&id=24905

  • 166. DSV  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:20 am

    @PamC

    My reply was to RJ, in reference to him jumping to the conclusion that these people were mixing gambling (etc) paraphernalia with the counter-belief of the bible. In which, his claims are unfounded and false; and spewed out with hatred.

    And EVERYONE proselytizes. It's not restricted to a religious belief. It is to persuade ANY belief.

    What the heck a little kid is gonna do with a list of commandments is beyond me, though. He'd have to already have something to reference.

  • 167. Rightthingtodo TX  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:21 am

    regarding video of louis…

    someone way cleverer than me said something like this somewhere on this site "show me a vehement opponent of gay rights and i'll show you a closeted dysfunctional gay person"

  • 168. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:22 am

    Although I'm not sure what "instrumentalities" are. Perhaps he means instruments?

  • 169. Steve  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:24 am

    I think what they really mean here is civilization. The kind of modern civilizations that started to pop up during the Bronze Age.

  • 170. bJason  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:27 am

    That or Hia Sofia (not sure which is larger or which is marble).

  • 171. Paul in Minneapolis  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:30 am

    They're just trying to play the victim card once again.

    Trying to turn the tables by screaming "victim" is one of the oldest tricks in the book. At one point during priest's speech (or was it the minister's? I don't remember), the speaker seemed to be describing US! People on our side were even shouting, "you're talking about us!"

    The minister who spoke inside the rotunda noted in her speech that, just looking at NOM's website, it would appear that our two sides would agree on many things. The only difference is that what NOM means by certain words and phrases is not what WE mean.

    Note how they use the language of equality to turn themselves into the victims, and those they oppress (us) into the villains. It's been noted here before how they have tried to compare themselves to Martin Luther King Jr. They also try to make it look like their rights are violated by screaming about “letting the people vote” – as if they would ever stand for anyone voting on their rights. They misuse language in the same way that they misuse images, music, history and religion. They attempt to garner sympathy from the ignorant while making it look like they take the high road. They attempt to cast us as misbehaving children at best, something less than human at worst, so that their message becomes more palatable.

    They want to distract everyone's attention from the real issues of equality and fairness; they know they cannot win that battle. So they go down the tangent of "look at what the gay radicals are doing to us now," all puffed up in their righteous indignation and sky-is-falling squawking. By doing this, they control the debate.

    Or so they believe. What they fail to remember is that civil rights do not belong solely to the well-behaved; rather, they are the birthright of every American citizen. The “injustices” they claim to have suffered cannot even begin to compare to the injustices they have inflicted on our community. Lack of civility, real or imagined, cannot honestly be compared to denying equal protection under law.

    Like I said before, they know what they're doing. Every last thing they do – every patriotic song they play, every red-white-and-blue sign they print, every lie they tell – is intentional. It is all a very carefully orchestrated charade. Draped in the flag, faith and the language of civil rights, they are the most dangerous snake-oil-peddling charlatans that ever walked the earth.

    We must never forget that.

  • 172. Felyx  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:33 am

    OMG!!! Did I not just wrote a joke about NOM looking 'dizzy' and here she is looking drunk as all get out!

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Dying ROTFLMAO!!!

    Felyx

  • 173. Southern Bell  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Sorry Steve, that substitution still does not provide more clarity for me. You cannot state that something served value before what it served existed. Maybe it is because I was never very good at philosophy. Thank you so much for trying!

    This statement reminds me of Maggie early on making a reference to "what every known society used to be able to do" where a man and woman made and raised their children together. So many types of societies don't fit that statement either.

  • 174. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:37 am

    @nightshayde: 'That’s why it’s so important for pro-equality Christians to make their views known publicly, and for the average boring (not in a bad way, mind you) GLBT couples/families to be seen in public situations acting anything but outrageous. The more the “insulated” people see pro-equality religious folk and totally “normal” gay couples (and families), the more they’ll come to realize that discrimination is unnecessary & that the right-wing lunatic fringe really is made of a bunch of complete wackos.'

    Very nicely said. Then a dialog can actually happen and peace can reign. Haters gonna hate :) It's what they do.

    Sometimes I am surprised with the zeal that some of these haters express in their work (like the nooses guy), or the hateful comments I mentioned previously regarding a wall st journal post, but I am not going to let them win. As anonygirl said in another post, "I do not hate them."

    Don't let the bastards grind you down.

    Not sure of the origins of this phrase, but it's one of my favorites.

  • 175. Felyx  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:37 am

    (Seriously Mags, if you channeled all that hate into exercising you would be hotter than Lady GaGa in a Madonna suit!)

    Felyx – Sad that so much 'diva' is being wasted on hate!

  • 176. Sarah  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:41 am

    @ Southern Bell Are they trying to draw a parallel between marriage helping create society? Is that how it ‘served society…before there even was a society?’ If that is what he was trying to imply (very poorly, might i add), I suppose to them, being Christian and all, that would mean Adam and Eve were officially married by the state, right? I mean, the state-sanctioned marriage is what we are fighting for, not the religious one that we can get if we find the right place. Did God preside over that wedding and sign the paper (haha, papyrus?) at the end?

    (I mean no offense to anybody with this sarcasm; I am a Christian but I often find humor in the fundamentalist views as they relate to our contemporary life…)

    And yes, how can people take them seriously when they come out with such blatantly ridiculous statements?

  • 177. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:43 am

    Exultation of the Integrality?

    Sorry, reminded me of the XeeLee sequence :)

  • 178. Sarah  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Without looking it up, I thought the Pantheon was the largest concrete dome…

  • 179. Alan E.  |  July 28, 2010 at 9:54 am

    I just went to http://www.oneman-onewoman.org, and guess what? It too is invite only!

  • 180. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:06 am

    They REALLY like secrecy, don't they? I still think they should just go for it and use sheets for their public appearances.

  • 181. Sarah  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:14 am

    [From around 2:45 or so] "But I would tell you, I think the Supreme Court reads election returns. And that's one of the reasons why these next election cycles are so important for us, who think marriage is a union of husband and wife and should be protected in law and society in that way."

    Ummm, so much for the SCOTUS using the Constitution to guide its decisions, as so many on the right claim to fight for. Would this not be advocating for activist judges to rule based on what the people want? Just think about it… :-p

  • 182. Felyx  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:16 am

    Actually we are dealing with a group that hasn't a clue about making metaphors.

    Besides, I can't tell you how many families have realized early on that the 'head of the household' is the one who is most able at the moment or at least the one who wants to put up with all the crap of maintaining a life.

    In my childhood family I ended up being the 'head of the household' for a time when I was the only one bringing in an income and could take care of everyone.

    In the end, though, you have to remember, aren't two heads better than one?… !
    :P Felyx

  • 183. l8r_g8r  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Actually, the USSC does "read" election returns in determining whether to hear certiorari. No individual in a civil action regarding civil rights has the legal right to appeal to the USSC. The USSC gets to decide which cases it hears and it only selects a small handful of the cases that actually petition for certiorari.

    However, denial of certiorari means very little. By denying certiorari, the USSC allows the appeal court ruling to stand, but does not itself make any law or indicate how it would rule if it were to accept the case.

    Notwithstanding the nonexistence precedential value of a denial of certiorari, any denial could cause a significantly lengthy delay in granting equal rights to all people of every orientation. So, to the extent that enough USSC Justices fear backlash from "the people," they can put off even hearing the case that would decide the fate of same-sex couples for a very, very long time.

  • 184. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Possibly the basilica of St. Peter at Vatican City?

  • 185. footnotegirl  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:39 am

    I was there too and had a similar WTF moment about their music. As my friend and I were walking up from their parking lot, they were playing 'patriotic' songs, and the one that was on when we got there was "Independence Day" by Martina McBride.
    Interesting choice, considering that a) Martina McBride is pro gay rights and b) it's a song about a woman killing herself and her abusive husband while their daughter is out of the house.
    Yeah! That's so very pro "traditional" marriage.

  • 186. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Yeah.. and that's a good thing.

    If you really represented the truth, you would not need to hide and censor, would you?
    :)

  • 187. Fluffyskunk  |  July 28, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Don't target the kids. They will think you're trying to "turn them gay." They accept as dogma that our side is actively trying to "recruit" children into our "sinful lifestyle", and the fact that they're actually out there doing the exact thing they accuse us of doesn't matter, they have the MSM and the default, kneejerk public "opinion" on their side and can target our children with impunity. We cannot do the same to theirs.

  • 188. Dave in Maine  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:01 am

    B. S. Brown is back to his LOOOOOONG email tricks again. One of the longest I've seen, he starts with this:
    ~~~
    Dear Marriage Supporter,

    By now, you’ve heard all about the incredible display of intolerance from supporters of gay marriage.

    They’ve come to our peaceful marriage rallies in city after city to harass and intimidate us. We’ve seen men harass a nursing mother, refusing her request to feed her children in private and instead stare at her and block her ability to watch our rally from a safe distance. We’ve seen protestors draped in the rainbow flag storm the stage and scream, red-faced into the microphone to prevent our speakers from talking. We’ve seen them bait a five year old child, asking her if she’s being raised by her mother to be a bigot. We’ve even heard a gay marriage supporter threaten to kidnap a child in attendance at a rally.

    ~~~

    And then goes on for 16 more paragraphs, bringing up that nursing mother and "storming the podium again:

    ~~Yesterday, the Human Rights Campaign issued a statement claiming the Summer for Marriage tour was an elaborate stunt designed to draw “lawful protestors” who are wrongly being portrayed by “made-up stories of as harassment.” Their problem, of course, is the video evidence that we have of screaming gay marriage radicals storming the podium and harassing nursing mothers and booing a Catholic Bishop leading a group in the Lord’s Prayer.

    ~~~
    and it ends with a plea for money.

    I'd copy and paste it here, but it's entirely too long and ridiculous, of course.

    Dave in Maine

  • 189. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:06 am

    @l8r_g8r: 'So, to the extent that enough USSC Justices fear backlash from “the people,” they can put off even hearing the case that would decide the fate of same-sex couples for a very, very long time.'

    But the whole point of having SCOTUS serve a lifetime term means that they really do not have to give a crap about 'election' results, or what the people think.

    Separation of Powers. They cannot be impeached because people disagree with them — I believe they can only be impeached if they commit, and are convicted of, a crime. That was the whole idea – that they would not be beholding to political or social 'fads', interests, or pressure.

    I do not believe the justices vote a certain way due to fear of 'backlash' but rather their own beliefs and attitudes as consistent with the constitution (in their own respective views). You could never really have a truly 'objective' justice (or human for that matter). Some are conservative leaning, some are liberal leaning.

    Or am I missing something…?

  • 190. JonT  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Yeah… sad really.

    Thinking people can look at the videos, read the commentary, look at the pictures and make up their own minds.

    The sheeple this missive is crafted for will simply send in the checks like the dutiful mind-slaves they are.

    Are we surprised?

  • 191. l8r_g8r  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:18 am

    No, you're not missing something. The Supreme Court wouldn't expressly state that they've decided not to hear the case because it's too political. Often, the Supreme Court will refuse to hear a case because it has not been vetted enough in the lower courts. That's just another way of saying that "this issue is too hot for us."

    With respect to making the actual decision on the merits, the whole point of lifetime terms is to ensure that the Justices won't be swayed by public opinion. But the same rules don't necessarily apply for granting or denying cert.

  • 192. Gina  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:18 am

    Actually we should hand out the ten commandments cards ourselves… Pointing out that there is no commandment saying SSM is a sin. God gave us only ten rules to live by. All other rules are man made.

  • 193. Anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    I am not trying to turn them gay. I am trying to give them a balloon. Poor kid, sitting out listening to all this yammering in the hot sun… needs something to do.

    I am a humanitarian, don't you know!
    :)

  • 194. RebeccaRGB  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Weren't most voters *against* the civil rights movement in the 1960s? What really tears me is that these people have the whole thing back-asswards!

  • 195. Closet Case :(  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Hi everyone. I am a straight, married woman, and I took part in the counter protest today.

    What a mess of emotions! I loved seeing the smiles, the color, the diversity and LOVE on our side of everything.. but that was tempered by the disappointment in noticing that MN turned out NOM's biggest numbers yet.

    My husband and I are allies. I may be straight, but I can relate to the GLBT community in one major way – I am in the closet. Not for my sexual preference, mind you.. but because I'm an immigrant. I'm "lucky" enough to look and sound enough like everyone else, that I CAN be closeted.. I just faced a lot of discrimination and outright xenophobia early on in my immigration process, hiding my nationality just made life easier.

    I'd never been in the Capitol before, and it was a really surreal – and emotionally upsetting – moment when I realized that the next time I'm there, it'll probably be to give up my beloved citizenship. That realization would be rough on the best of days, but to be surrounded by that sort of bigotry… it was sad. Can't even describe how sad it made me.

    I am so glad that my country – Canada – has played host to the marriages of so many people that were in attendance today. It makes me proud to be a Canadian… but also breaks my heart. Robyn's speech about confusing her grandkids, the nice couple whose sign asked why their Canadian marriage is legal in 10 countries, but not here… it's a lot to take in. I'll tell you this much, I will have a VERY hard time going through with naturalization as long as there is such a huge vein of bigotry here.

    NOM made no sense. I tried in vain to understand them, and at many points, I thought their podium had gotten hijacked by one of us. I don't know that they understood what they were saying, but for a LOT of it, they sounded very pro-gay marriage.

    Why am I ranting here? I don't know… because I can. I wish I could express my heartbreak and disappointment in the system of intolerance under my name, as myself, in forums I have.. but I'm NOT ready to "out" myself as an immigrant yet. I really hope that the culture of hate will recede- soon, so that immigrants AND gay people alike will be treated as equals, and not in the less-than-human ways that we sometimes are. The USA and I have very, very different ideas about what "freedom" is. Heh. "Land of the Free"! Riiiight.

    Thank you, all of the counter protestors, for giving me hope. I can't tell you how ugly things can be in this new world for me, I get frustrated a LOT, and even the news can be so depressing. I struggle to understand insanity that seems to be all around me, things I not only was never exposed to growing up, but could not have even fathomed. I cannot tell you how beautiful you all are. You bring a big bright light to my bleak culture shock.

    One final thought… "Tolerance" is an ugly word. NO ONE should be striving for tolerance. I TOLERATE my obnoxious neighbours. I TOLERATE a pimple. I think it's disgusting when people talk about their 'tolerance" for gay people, as if they're doing you a favor by putting up with your existence. NO! No one should tolerate gays, or immigrants, or anyone that is different. Differences should be ACCEPTED and even CELEBRATED. Asking for tolerance is like striving to achieve a B or C on a report card. AIM HIGHER!!

  • 196. Amid being outnumbered ag&hellip  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    [...] despite the largest turnout of the tour, NOM was yet again outnumbered by pro-equality  supporters today in St. Paul, Minnesota. Amid this news and other problems NOM [...]

  • 197. Sarah  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Good point, l8r_g8r, I do recall some of those things from my school law class. I think of the Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas case that the Court used to integrate schools after years of the separate but equal doctrine put forth in Plessy v. Ferguson. They sort of waited for the "right" time to do it, to make it a landmark ruling. HOWEVER, 1954 was hardly a time when the public at large would have voted to desegregate schools.

    I guess we are waiting for that grand tide to turn so that the SCOTUS will take that bold step that we believe they need to take, regardless of potential backlash (even though they should not fear that backlash). And, this quote shows once more how "they" will use things to their advantage whenever possible… if we said that, they would call us anti-American because we were supporting judicial activism. That knife cuts both ways, Maggie.

  • 198. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Welcome! Thank you for coming here to tell your story. I hope you know you are welcome here any time. I agree – diversity is something to be celebrated. As much as I'm saddened that you've encountered prejudice, it warms my heart that you've used that experience to better understand others who have also been treated as "other" and are willing to stand in public and show your support. I love our rainbow people!

  • 199. Closet Case :(  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Honestly, if I didn't volunteer for furthering GLBT justice & equality, I think I would go insane. If I didn't fight back against the bigotry that bothers me, I'd be letting it defeat me, and I would be a broken, depressed person.

    This is therapeutic.

  • 200. NOM President Lies, Claim&hellip  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    [...] (Oh, and that “crowd?” Well, NOM had their highest attendance day yet in St. Paul: 163. Our side: 217.) [...]

  • 201. Kathleen  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    I understand. :) Thank you, all the same.

  • 202. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Hugs & welcome

    <3 Jeremy

  • 203. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Mark, tried to reply to this earlier, but my phone (or the interweb) decided to eat it. I actually replied in the next blog entry. Don't want to xpost it so I ask you read it there.

    <3 jeremy

  • 204. TPAKyle  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    Folks, Brian Brown has unleashed his latest e-mail rant (take a deep breath):

    Dear TPAKyle,

    By now, you’ve heard all about the incredible display of intolerance from supporters of gay marriage.
    They’ve come to our peaceful marriage rallies in city after city to harass and intimidate us. We’ve seen men harass a nursing mother, refusing her request to feed her children in private and instead stare at her and block her ability to watch our rally from a safe distance. We’ve seen protestors draped in the rainbow flag storm the stage and scream, red-faced into the microphone to prevent our speakers from talking. We’ve seen them bait a five year old child, asking her if she’s being raised by her mother to be a bigot. We’ve even heard a gay marriage supporter threaten to kidnap a child in attendance at a rally.
    I thought I had heard and seen it all, but the radicals reached a new low yesterday in Madison, Wisconsin. NOM and its supporters gathered peacefully in Madison to pray for marriage and to stand in support of marriage remaining a sacred union between men and women.
    We were honored to have Bishop Robert Morlino of the Diocese of Madison address the crowd. Bishop Morlino spoke of the need to love one another even as we disagree on the issue of same-sex marriage. Yet when he led the crowd in the Lord’s Prayer, the gay marriage radicals screamed and booed him.
    Watch the video here.
    This is the face of intolerance. Isn’t it something when people who so loudly demand tolerance from everybody else, show such intolerance for those who simply wish to pray to God for the preservation of His sacred institution?
    The NOM Summer for Marriage Tour started out as a simple exercise to bring together supporters of marriage across the country to rally in support of an institution that we hold dear, something that has served society well since before there even was a society. And we’ve done that with hundreds of supporters across the country joining our tour, and tens of thousands joining our bus tour online.
    But something else has happened along the way — the people of America are seeing for the first time with their own eyes how radical our opponents truly are. These people who scream at our supporters, mock priests, taunt children and boo the Lord’s Prayer are the very same people who, with a straight face, promise that they would never force their values on us if America would only legalize gay marriage.
    Their lies have been laid bare for the world to see. And the world is watching it backfire on them. Last week alone, over 1.3 million people read about the gay radicals on Facebook. Millions more watched news reports and read about their antics in various news publications. Today in St. Paul, we had one of our largest rallies to date, with between 200 and 250 supporters coming out to stand for marriage. And rather than the protests dampening turnout, I’ve lost count how many people have come up to me to say that they came to the rally because they saw the videos of the protestors and are more determined than ever to stand up for marriage.
    To say that the display of anger and intolerance has been a public relations disaster for the gay marriage movement is the understatement of the century. That’s why two gay marriage groups yesterday attempted embarrassing efforts at “spin control” to try to deflect the public’s attention away from what is happening at the marriage rallies.
    Yesterday, the Human Rights Campaign issued a statement claiming the Summer for Marriage tour was an elaborate stunt designed to draw “lawful protestors” who are wrongly being portrayed by “made-up stories of as harassment.” Their problem, of course, is the video evidence that we have of screaming gay marriage radicals storming the podium and harassing nursing mothers and booing a Catholic Bishop leading a group in the Lord’s Prayer.
    Do these look like “made up stories of harassment” to you? Unfortunately for the Human Rights Campaign, these are the faces of what the future will look like for anyone who opposes same-sex marriage. Groups like HRC and their supporters will use the full force of the law — lawsuits, legislation, regulations and even public intimidation and harassment — to force their vision and values on the American people. This is becoming more and more clear to America with every passing tour stop.
    The group “Freedom to Marry” issued their own statement yesterday, but they apparently forgot to coordinate their message of the day with HRC. Instead of accusing us of “made up stories of harassment” this group showed a repulsive picture of someone whose sign featured a noose, implying that homosexuals should be put to death. They went on to “demand” that NOM repudiate this “incitement to violence.” We’d treat this call seriously if it weren’t such a contrived stunt.
    First of all, NOM has already repudiated this display of intolerance — and did so on the spot (not through a press release). We demanded this individual to take down his sign, because it was inconsistent with NOM’s aims, methods, and message: We come together in love to support marriage as one man and one woman.
    Second, at every rally we make it clear that our fight is not with gay Americans, it is with a bad idea. The Lord teaches us that we are to love all His children. We approach the issue of marriage from the perspective of love. You can watch video of NOM’s Chair, Maggie Gallagher, making this point here.
    Our opponents are becoming more and more desperate as they watch their carefully scripted narrative of same-sex marriage crumble before the eyes of the American people.
    We need your help to continue our successful Summer for Marriage tour and to continue to publicize this issue. If the tour is coming to a city near you, please come to show your support. We need all our supporters to rally around the cause, especially in these trying times. Visit http://www.marriagetour2010.com for all the latest tour information.
    We also need your financial help to continue the tour. This is a costly and difficult tour to organize and implement. We have to feed, house and transport staff and volunteers in nearly two-dozen cities — not to mention the cost of preparing, securing and keeping the bus and support vehicles on the road for the month-long tour. Please make a special contribution today to enable us to bear all the expenses of this historic tour.
    There’s no doubt that God is working a wondrous thing with the Summer for Marriage tour. We are changing hearts and minds across America. People are rallying to our side. Please keep us in your prayers, and remember us with a financial gift as well.
    May God bless you and your family.
    Faithfully,
    Brian S. Brown
    President
    National Organization for Marriage
    2029 K Street, NW, Suite 300
    Washington, DC 20006
    bbrown@nationformarriage.org
    Contributions or gifts to the National Organization for Marriage, a 501(c)(4) organization with QNC status, are not tax-deductible. The National Organization for Marriage does not accept contributions from business corporations, labor unions, foreign nationals, or federal contractors; however, it may accept contributions from federally registered political action committees. Donations may be used for political purposes such as supporting or opposing candidates. No funds will be earmarked or reserved for any political purpose.

  • 205. Anonygrl  |  July 28, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    I just went there and got in. I will check it out.

  • 206. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 28, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Well, I would love to restate Kathleen's welcome. BTW, I was in Toronto thirty years ago, and was so impressed with how friendly and welcoming everyone there was.

  • 207. Dave in CA  |  July 28, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    “…According to Father Becker, anal and oral sex lack dignity because they abuse their partners as instrumentalities of pleasure…” etc

    Does he speak from personal experience?

  • 208. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    I have it on some authority that this is being looked into… rec'd from a distribution list:

    "Hi everyone! I somehow missed this on NPR, I personally am an NPR addict, but I'm sure I missed it because I've been LIVING at my Target store.

    I am actually at the regional office today and will chat with the VP of LA to see if she knows what we might be doing with this. I can personally tell you that my experience has been amazing so far.

    I can say that Target is inherently a supportive and inclusive place of business. There will certainly be an impact because of this decision but hopefully the company will react accordingly. My boss has actually made a personal commitment to me to at least learn more about it and share with me as soon as he can.

    So, all that being said, I'm just speaking as an individual that wants you to know that despite this pretty impactful decision Target is a great place to work and does great things too.

    Obviously, everyone should do what you feel is appropriate but please know there is absolutely discussion about this and it is not going unaddressed. "

    " I spotted the story on the Advocate.com Sunday, 25JUL10 and copied it to XXXX immediately. He in turn forwarded it to each of the WeHo City Councilmembers with the suggestion that the Target WeHo manager be asked to explain headquarter's action to the Council at their proximate meeting.

    It is noted that Target has had a 100% HRC approval this year.

    Additionally, XXXX sent the story to IMRU/This Way Out at KPFK, 90.7-FM, Pacifica Radio. He also copied to several grassroots organizations."

    "I like my local Target store, so I drove over there and spoke with the local store manager on duty. She wasn't up to speed on the issue yet but was very friendly, apparently understanding, and cooperative. She gave me the corporate number and I registered my views with XXXX, a senior guest relations staff member who was also very cooperative on the phone. He did
    point out that Target didn't actually fund the candidate directly but sent its money to Minnesota Forward."

    "This has been all over Facebook since yesterday as well. Mr. Emmer isn't just against gay marriage — he apparently is in a "Christian" rock band that travels
    around encouraging people to KILL gays …

    I sent a strongly worded message to Target corporate via their web site yesterday; I like my Target stores, but feel that the explanation that they didn't give directly to Emmer is a smokescreen. Target will not be getting any
    more of my money until they rescind this and apologize."

    And personally, I agree… take away Target and Walmart (and that Kmart's have all but disappeared), there's not many places left. I also think that the whole "the mormon church didn't donate to prop 8, that was all NOM" tired line is just that… a tired line. I'm not going to go storming the walls just yet, but I will remember to fill my shopping list at another venue (Ralphs/Alberstons/Trader Joe's/etc) until this has been resolved to some level of community satisfaction.

  • 209. Jeremy  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    More news on the Target front:

    This is the reply that is being sent to complaints registered via website

    "Dear XXXX YYYYYYYYY,

    Target has long believed that engaging in civic activities is an important and necessary element of operating a national retail business. What's more important than any one candidate's stance on a particular issue i…s how we nurture thoughtful, long-term growth in the state of Minnesota.

    Our support of causes and candidates is based strictly on issues that affect our retail and business objectives. To continue to grow and create jobs and opportunity in our home state, we believe it is imperative to be engaged in public policy and the political process. That is why we are members of organizations like the Minnesota Business Partnership, the Chamber of Commerce and many others. And that is why we decided to contribute to MN Forward.

    MN Forward's objective is to elect candidates from both parties who will make job creation and economic growth a top priority. We operate best when working collaboratively with legislators on both sides of the aisle. In fact, if you look at our Federal PAC contributions year to date, you will see that they are very balanced between Republicans and Democrats. For more information please visit http://www.target.com/company, and view the Civic Activity page.

    Target has a large stake in Minnesota's future, which is why it is so important to be able to provide jobs, serve guests, support communities and deliver on our commitment to shareholders. As an international business that is proud to call Minnesota home, it is critical that we have a business environment that allows us to be competitive. Our guests, team members, communities and shareholders depend on Target to remain competitive.

    Thanks for taking the time to share your feedback."

    and

    "Jul 23, 2010 Target Corporation announced that Matt Zabel will join Target as Vice President, Government Affairs, effective August 23. Zabel will be based in Washington, D.C. and will oversee teams in both
    Minneapolis and D.C.

    Matt Zabel, joins Target from U.S. Senator John Thune's office where he has served as Chief of Staff since 2004.

    The American Conservative Union gave Senator Thune a rating of "100" in 2006. Thune strongly supported to amend the United States Constitution to ban same-sex marriage."

    More bad news for Target it seems.

  • 210. Box Turtle Bulletin &raqu&hellip  |  July 28, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    [...] More from Courage Campaign: We also met with Father Michael Becker, a Catholic priest whose main argument against [...]

  • 211. Tyler  |  July 28, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    Actually I see his point. It's not a malicious one, but the simple fact that in about 20 years there will be less of them. For us, though, we will simply be 20 years older. And with offspring! Haha

  • 212. couragecampaign  |  July 28, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    I have been traveling so I've kept up with this a bit intermittently since Tuesday. The comments here continue to instill hope, confidence and knowledge that we will prevail because we are a movement. We are open. We trust people. We trust progress. And we trust America.

    NOM has entered a bunker. As you all point out, NOM sees that it is losing and that time is against it. It has limited time to raise money from churches and then hide the sources of that money. (Ms. Gallagher all but admits that her funding comes from the LDS church in that wonderful video by Bil Browning.) NOM fears open engagement. NOM sews fear. That's what we saw in the Prop. 8 trial; that's what we see here.

    The comments here, on the other hand, are a discussion among a community. People get hot under the collar sometimes and then talk openly and then moderate, but never waiver. This community knows where it is going and knows that transparency wins.

    One final point for now: that chant in the state capitol about freedom is the same chant that our Arisha Michelle Hatch has used every time she has organized a group. It's simple, soulful and powerful. It's the essence of the progressive movement and the movement for equality in love.

    I am honored to be a part of this great community that cares about immigrants' rights, about freedom and about each other.

    Rick Jacobs.

  • 213. Varika  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    I think we should also point out that Jesus actually advocated CELIBACY, and said that marriage was for those who couldn't control themselves, so the central god-figure of their religion actually didn't like marriage AT ALL.

    It would at least be good for watching heads explode messily.

  • 214. Varika  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    @ Richard Walter

    I thought the 11th Commandment was "Don't get caught" and the 12th was "Thou shalt never pay retail"!

  • 215. Varika  |  July 28, 2010 at 11:44 pm

    This reminds me of when I was 21–for my birthday, which is in October, we went to Salem, Mass. for Halloween. I was approached by a proselytizer who was harranguing people in the streets. I refused to listen to him, just kept moving, and he screams at me, "DON'T YOU WANT TO BE SAVED!?!?!?"

    I said, "No."

    He promptly commenced sputtering helplessly. People like this don't seem to be able to COMPREHEND the existence of viewpoints not their own.

    Also, @Tyler–there's no reason you can't read the Bible outside of a church setting, you know. I've ALWAYS been Pagan, and yet I still have my own bible (Gideon's, I got it in a hospital) and read it periodically for its own sake as a peice of literature. As a document, rather than a creed, it's kind of awesome. Besides, forewarned it forearmed, and I need the extra set of hands.

  • 216. Varika  |  July 29, 2010 at 12:05 am

    @ Steve:

    Even better is using Madison, who actually WROTE the Constitution.

    "Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents.

    The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves. " – James Madison

    "True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority." – James Madison

    And OMG, this:
    http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/madlib.htm

    I swear, you could replace "Republican" with "Equality Supporter" and "Anti-republican" with "NOM supporter" and the conversation wouldn't even change…

  • 217. Varika  |  July 29, 2010 at 12:14 am

    I understand your frustrations, Mark.

    Maybe it would help to re-read the replies with a different set of eyes. I am not a Christian, and when I read these replies, I read them and see people who are fed up with a group using Christian rhetoric to justify their bigotry and violence and abuse. I see people who are saying, "If these people are using these things on you, turn around and respond in kind. Point up that they are NOT being good Christians, that they are taking what THEY want out of the bible and twisting it to THEIR uses by doing the same thing!"

    And unfortunately for many of us who were not raised Christian–and many who were, in the wrong places and the wrong churches for them–this is the only face of Christianity that we have ever seen: the face of bigotry and hatred and intolerance. It's hard not to be damning of the whole when we have never seen the faces of goodness turned toward us, so try to be patient with us?

    I am glad that you spoke up, as a reminder that this face exists, and is among us, and I'm sorry that you feel attacked, because that is not and should NEVER BE the goal of those who support equality.

  • 218. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 29, 2010 at 12:50 am

    Star Tribune – Minneapolis, St. Paul Minnesota

    Star Tribune video of the event (not an embeddable video) there is an accompanying article "Dueling rallies with little hitch" on the right (link).
    http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/9949782

  • 219. Lesbians Love Boies  |  July 29, 2010 at 1:04 am

    March for Marriage Equality 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIejSbprad4

  • 220. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  July 29, 2010 at 1:28 am

    Thank you SO much Closet case….your words have certainly cheered me up this morning. I was feeling so depressed yesterday…can only read about and watch videos of all this hate just so long before it gets to me.
    Thank you for showing me and others that we have allys…people who understand…people who will fight alongside us, with us, for us.
    Welcome to our ever growing P8TT Family!!!

  • 221. Richard A. Walter (s  |  July 29, 2010 at 1:57 am

    Actually, that was Saul of Tarsus who advocated celibacy. Yoshua ben Yosef merely advocated that HaShem have first place in your life, regardless of your marital status. Yoshua ben Yosef also advocated for the abolition of divorce.

  • 222. Two amazing videos from S&hellip  |  July 29, 2010 at 8:24 am

    [...] more coverage and analysis from yesterday’s events in St. Paul, where despite the largest turnout of the tour for NOM, equality supporters still had greater [...]

  • 223. St. Cloud, MN: Dueling ra&hellip  |  July 29, 2010 at 10:59 am

    [...] forget to check out this morning’s video and analysis from the stop in St. Paul, as well as photos and a summary on what happened there [...]

  • 224. Jeremy  |  July 29, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Best Buy apparently also supports anti-gay and anti-semitic bigots. Another boycott to join.

  • 225. Tim R (Toledo)  |  July 29, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    My great grandfather once said it is written several times in the good book (as he called the Bible); that it came to pass and never once that it came to stay. Your blues are a product of your mind so try not to look at your feet so you dont know where to shoot yourself (something else he warned against doing before noon).
    I am also Christinan and like the Bible make sexuality a non issue. 120 years of Koine Greek discoveries make NOM and its supporters so diametricly opposed to biblical direction and acts Jesus clearly warned aginst in his quintessential teaching on judgment so many times it boggles most the minds of informed Christians how they (NOM) justify there actions. Likely indicated by there sparse support to date. Clearly their salemanship and americana hype is meant to distract those who might otherwise identify it as the cheap imatation it is

    For some crystal clear insight into what Jesus really said and the Jewish laws and rules he followed, I would strongly recommend The Jesus Secret, by Michael Wood, if you love an academic approach (non-fiction) or The Jarome Conspiracy, also by Michael Wood if you would prefer a modern parable approach to the same academic facts. The GLBT community can certainly have its cake and eat it too when it comes to Christianity. For those of you who need to reach out to your Christian friends to bridge the gap and clear away the clouds organizations like NOM, Phelps, et. al have thrown out there to confuse this clear constitutional issue not so clear religious belief issue I would suggest purchasing a copy of each or either and share them.

    Personal interaction will win them over.

  • 226. fiona64  |  July 30, 2010 at 4:00 am

    You got it right.

    Hi, Brian and Louis! Bless your hearts. How nice.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 227. fiona64  |  July 30, 2010 at 4:03 am

    I suspect they got a c&d from Peter, Paul & Mary's management and had to try to come up with something else.

    Love,
    Fiona

  • 228. fiona64  |  July 30, 2010 at 4:08 am

    Haghia Sofia is marble. :-)

  • 229. NOM in Rochester, MN: Ret&hellip  |  July 30, 2010 at 10:43 am

    [...] an especially moving equality rally under the rotunda in the Minnesota State Capitol, by clicking here and here [...]

  • 230. Amid being outnumbered ag&hellip  |  September 28, 2010 at 7:43 am

    [...] despite the largest turnout of the tour, NOM was yet again outnumbered by pro-equality  supporters today in St. Paul, Minnesota. Amid this news and other problems NOM [...]

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