January 15, 2010
By Rick Jacobs
Boutrous (plaintiff’s lawyer): Mr. Thompson said that witnesses were withdrawn because of the cameras. In fact, they withdrew them after the Supreme Court issued the temporary stay. We predicted in the pre-trial that they would withdraw because they could not withstand cross.
Thompson (defense lawyer): We in our papers explained that witnesses were concerned. Boutrous exacerbated situation when on Monday he insisted on having taping continue.
Cross-exam of Dr. Michael Lamb continues…
Judge: Why do adoptive children seek out their biological parents? Just asking as a layperson.
L: Because people want to understand literally where they came from. Does not relate to maladjustment.
Judge: NO relation to antisocial behavior?
Judge: No reason to protect children from lesbians and gays. We’ve all read the reports of priestly abuse in Catholic Church. How do you square your statement with that?
Data show that individuals who have same sex orientation are no more likely to abuse children than heteros. They do abuse children just as heteros due. Not familiar with church issues completely, but know that in Ireland huge report that heteros in the church abused children. I don’t want to convey the fact that homos never abuse children; no more likely than heteros.
Judge: Any study? Focused on the children more than the individuals who are thought to be the abusers?
T: Why is it that if genetic connection is not important couples go through in vitro expense rather than adopt?
L: Some people do find this genetic connection important, but data that children created in any way are equally likely to be “normal.” The children are what they are.
T: Research on gay fathers has been conducted with homogeneous groups?
L: Not sure about term homogenous in this context.
T: Fourth edition of role of Father in Family Development 2004. Charlotte Patterson wrote a chapter called Gay Fathers, whom L holds in high regard.
T: Samples of gay fathers have been mainly Caucasian, affluent, in urban centers. Although the evidence suggests that gay men are more likely to live in urban centers, cannot conclude that this is all accurate. For conclusion, caution is required because it’s new area of research.
L: True at time in 2002. I am starting a study of my own on gay male parenting in UK and want to do so in US. Want to match as many issues as you can, including nature of parents’ prior relationship.
T: Most do not do that?
L: Some do. Some don’t.
T: Combined income of $100,000 with one child, and second with $100,000 with ten children, resources available to children different. You’ll try to control for that in your study?
L: Yes. No studies on which I would rely have no control groups.
T: Do you have any data on parental age and how it matters?
L: What would be important would not to mix teen parents with mature parents and likewise not to mix when older people have children? Not linearly related to parenting.
T: You’ll ask in your study if parents are sexually exclusive?
L: Nature of relationship between parents important. To the extent that sexual exclusivity is important to consider, we might study this. As I told you at depo, we might look at this. True of both homo and hetero couples in terms of study.
T: Many of the studies on which you rely are single time snapshots?
L: Some do. UK study will include those adopted at birth.
T: Ed background, income available, relate to parenting. Important to consider?
T: Most of yours deal with white middle class lesbians?
L: Some do, yes. Reason we don’t have control is we did not need for studies.
T: Average better to have two parents?
L: Average, yes.
T: But your studies compare lesbians to single mothers?
L: Some do, but some don’t.
T: Kids of lesbians only do as well as single mom family?
L: Some do. Large body of work. Missing the point. Look at level of adequate schooling, etc.
T: Many are of young children so not enough data?
L: Some and some look to GPA.
T: none of studies look at difficulty of schools or difficulty of course work? Would want to compare native intelligence to attainment?
L: Nice if you can, but hard to get to it?
T: Not one single study that has tried to compare these children’s’ educational attainment and native intelligence?
T: Do not hold constant in studies for number of siblings even though sibling is a good thing?
T: You don’t compare community college v. Cambridge for kids? Not one study compares financial resources grandparents make available?
L: Not financial resources, no. But resources of grandparents are taken into account.
T: We’re looking at hundreds of studies you’ve done children of gay parents. None takes into account grandparents’ financial capacity to help kids?
L: Not none.
T: Lots of researchers have shown that depression can indirectly affect children (referencing Dr. Meyer’s testimony about how LGBs can get depressed from too much social stigma).
L: Depression of parents can indirectly affect kids.
T: Talking about witness from Canada same-sex marriage “battle” and a guy who is “unfortunately deceased at the present.” [That’s his construction; unfortunately, he’s deceased at the present.]
T: Would you agree that coming to a settled definition of homosexuality is important to doing effective research on this issue?
L: Neither me nor Knox is an expert on these definitions. We do research on same-sex oriented v. opposite-sex oriented.
T: It is necessary to use those correlational data…
L: Need to use multiple techniques to learn.
T: Page 18 of Knock (Knox?) affidavit. Agree that researcher must ID how info is to be obtained from sample?
T: Before gathering a single datum from a sample must first translate concepts of what is to be measured. (Line of questions to say that a moveable definition of homosexuality is key and without same, none of this research matters.)
Althea Nagi (?) and Lerner reached conclusion that same-sex parenting literature not sufficient to draw conclusions about same sex parenting skills.
L: Yes, they drew that conclusion ten years ago.
T: Walter Shum of Kansas State Univ: What was really learned from Golubmach/Tasker?
L: I did see it. He has published in journals in which you have to pay to get published, so I see it in that light.
T: You have “squared off” against him before?
L: I have seen him in trials, yes. Always useful for researchers to exercise caution (in response to Shum saying the body of work is too small as are samples of gay fathers.)
T: “One relatively new line of inquiry is the dev and adjustment of children living with parents of LGB parents.” “The persistent limitation of these studies is that most rely upon white middle class previously married lesbians and their children. As a result we cannot be confident of the generalizability of the findings.”
L: You would have to be careful if you were relying on a small group of individuals to do research.
T: “Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter” by Dr. Julia Stacy at USC.
L: Familiar with her work. Not sure she is advocate of ss marriage.
T: Reads from her writing. “However on other measures such as occupational goals and sartorial style, they (children of lesbians) find more gender conformity.” [T now realizes that he goofed and wants to read more.]
L: On some measures such as play preferences and hostility.
T: “Minuscule sample” can be too restrictive. [This is footnote. Trying to make point that not enough data for any of what L does is useful.]
T: Virginia Schiller of Yale writes in very last sentence, “Given that opponents make egregious statements about children of g & l, are we justified in lower scientific standards in medical community?” Is this okay?
L: I don’t know of such lower standards in any studies.
T: You don’t know of bias previously against GL?
L: I had understood you wanted me to comment on that statement above?
T: That’s okay. Let’s move on.
T: You “ignored” a study.
L: This study is a complete outlier of the research. By own admission, problems with its methodology. (Study compares childhood outcomes.)
T: This study has the largest sample ever?
L: This one has 58 children of lesbian mothers. Two control groups. Not by a long shot the largest sample for study. [L knows much more about the studies than the lawyer, which is embarrassing the lawyer. He keeps on moving because he is looking for ways to discredit Lamb which is just not working.]
T: You agree that setting limits for children is important?
Judge: That’s not the only area in which setting limits are important.
T: I’m going to try to show that L does not compare with married heteros. Compares with all hetero parents, including those who are not married.
Judge: He’s your witness; ask him.
L: Did not exclude people who were not married in the hetero group.
T: You just don’t know how many of these studies compare bio same sex couples with lesbian couples?
L: Compare bio parent-raised kids with lesbian couples, not necessarily just married couples to lesbians.
[Lots of this. Going on and on to make clear that there is not control group of married bio parents. L says we did not exclude people who were not married with bio children.]
T: Five of 38 rated children, 17%, shown with psych disorder lesbians compared with 12 of 104 or 9% of hetero couples.
L: No. Read preceding sentence. Difference is not large enough because it’s not statistically different.
T: Keeps pushing to say that it’s 50% greater for homos, but it’s not statistically significant because sample size is so small. Lamb keeps saying it’s not statistically significant.
Thomas goes through every single study to show that heteros in samples include all heteros, not just married.
L: I have not gone through all of these, but I think we did not exclude people who were not married. However, most were married, especially in the early studies.
T: Wants to have him look at a mathematical formulation on cognitive competence.
L: Appears true that cognitive competence of married parents’ kids is higher than lesbians in this study.
[Thomas is sort of proving our point, namely if gays and lesbians could marry and live equally with heteros, kids would all do equally well. If there is no stigma, than kids will do well.]
[UDATE] 2:12 Judge: Isn’t this going to be the same for all documents?
T: (Waiving hands) We’re trying to show that optimal way to raise kids is in hetero households.
Judge: We are trying a case. There is a way to ask these questions so we move along quickly. Why not just list documents and ask questions at end?
T: Good suggestion.
[Series of these]
[Delay because they are marking up documents on all of this.]
[NOTE]: This thread was getting to be a bit long. I’ve moved to a new one for Dr. Lamb’s re-direct.